Our 20th Webcast where we discuss all things camera related.

 

 

This week we will be completely geeking out on the pros and cons of the best cinematic cameras available in 2021. Join us as we discuss tech specs of the best cine cameras on the market.

 

Panel Bio’s

 

John Daly (Host)Sunset Beach, NC

https://www.youtube.com/undercoverjetsetter

 

Susan Anzalone (Co-Host)Los Angeles, CA

https://www.youtube.com/undercoverjetsetter

 

Sahir ChampionLos Angeles, CA

www.sahirchampion.com

NYC Native, Sahir Champion graduated from the Newhouse School of Public Communications at Syracuse University with a focus in T.V, Radio, and film production. He began his career as a professional editor and eventually expanded his talents into producing and directing. He has worked for high-profile clients, advertising agencies, record labels, and production companies such as Complex, BET, Cadillac and, many more.

 

Kevin GarciaOrange County, CA

mixonesound.com

Kevin Garcia has spent the last decade capturing festivals, music and documenting travels around world with some of rock’s biggest acts. Over the last year, he’s been streaming and directing shoots with bands in order to bring live performances right into people’s homes, making them feel as if they’re right alongside the bands as they perform.

 

Bruce LundeenBoston, MA

http://www.light-raves.com/

Bruce Lundeen is a pro lighting cinematographer who creates exceptional work in reality shows, high-end corporate productions and documentaries, including programs for Restaurant Impossible, NASCAR, Time Video, and Visionaries on PBS.

 

Matthew BaronBaltimore, MD

www.gearfocus.com

Founder of Gear Focus. Over 25 years experience as an entrepreneur and business professional, as well as an avid photographer. Created Gear Focus, which is an online global marketplace for buying and selling camera gear. Made by creatives, for creatives.

 

Glen ReedJacksonville, FL

FullResolutionMedia.com

Glen Reed is a lifelong learner of all things videography and photography. His passion has grown from a hobby to a full-time freelance profession. His devotion is reflected in his ability to take creative ideas, whether his own or his clients, and turn them into a visual representation. His photo and video expertise ranges in areas of non-profit, commercial, and promotional photography and video, real estate and virtual tours, as well as weddings and engagements.

 

Sergei FranklinNew York, NY

www.sergeifranklin.com

Sergei Franklin is Emmy award winning director of photography and steadicam operator. He has worked on features, TV shows, music video’s, commercials, branded and art films.

 

Enrique MezaFresno, CA

www.mezafilms.com

Enrique Meza is a Creative Director and owner of Meza Films, a modern visual strategy company located in Downtown Fresno. For the past 12 years, he and his team have helped clients and brands share their unique stories through visual and compelling imagery. They know their clients have great products and ideas–that’s easy. Their job is to communicate that same sentiment through still or moving images. When they partner with a client, they consider themselves an extension of their brand and team. They are made up of purpose-driven individuals that were born to help others. Relationships matter at Meza Films, and helping build the client’s brand keeps their relationships strong.

 

Transcripts from Talk

 

Susan Anzalone:

Well, hi everyone. And welcome to crew talk brought to you by shoots.video. Happy Wednesday. I’m Susan Anzalone along with my co-host John Daly

John Daly:

And Susan. Thank you. And hi everyone. We are the producers of Undercover Jetsetter, a travel food, wine mixology and golf show all shot off the iPhone.

Susan Anzalone:

And we are filling in for Sarah Marince, who couldn’t be with us today, but hopefully we will do as good a job as she does.

John Daly:

We will try our best. Now, today, we’re going to talk about cameras, which ones to use, which ones are better for what kind of issues.

Susan Anzalone:

And we have a great panel of experts who know far more about the subject than we do.

John Daly:

Now, if you have any questions, type them in the chat box or the Q and a below, we will get to them. And later we will have a trivia question. The right answer gets a prize too. Okay.

Susan Anzalone:

So let’s get started by introducing our amazing panel. Let’s kick it off with Glen. Go ahead.

Glen Reed:

I’m a freelance videographer and photographer out in Florida. I do everything from weddings to real estate, to YouTube and yep. Out here in the Jacksonville area.

Susan Anzalone:

All right. And next Sergei

Sergei Franklin:

Director of photography and steady cam operator in New York. And I work on features, music, videos, commercials, branded art films. So kind of almost everything.

Susan Anzalone:

All right, great. And how about you, Bruce?

Bruce Lundeen:

I’m Bruce Lundeen and I run light raves. I do documentary cinematography primarily for a show called visionaries on PBS.

Susan Anzalone:

Okay, perfect. Thanks for that. And so here, how about you?

Sahir Champion:

Good afternoon, everybody. I’m Sahir Champion. I have a company called S7 studios. We’re a full service production and creative shop specializing in commercials, music videos, as well as branded content and also working in longer format stuff, such as features, documentaries, and anything dealing with streaming content.

Susan Anzalone:

All right, awesome. And next we’re going to go to Kevin, Kevin.

Kevin Garcia:

I have a same kind of thing as him. I said here, honestly, a lot of music videos specializing in bands did the big pivot to some larger format streams out in the field and doing live broadcasting and that, and then music videos and a lot of festival work went. That was a reality.

Susan Anzalone:

Fantastic. Okay. You will go to Matthew.

Matthew Baron:

Hi everybody. I’m Matthew. I’m the founder of gear focus. Your focus is in the online marketplace to buy and sell camera gear, and it was made by creative sport creatives. I’m a photographer and filmmaker, and I can guarantee you, I’m not as experienced as a lot of these on the panel. As far as the video and filmmaking is because photography is my background, but I own gear focus marketplace.

Susan Anzalone:

Awesome. Okay. And last but not least we will go to and Riki,

Enrique Meza:

Hey there. My name is Enrique. I run a production company called Meza films and we specialize mostly in commercial production. So a lot of it is branding, you know, company, social media, things like that, but all of it in the commercial space.

Susan Anzalone:

Okay. Perfect. All right. Well, John, would you like to kick us off with some questions?

John Daly:

Let’s get going. So what new camera are you most Excited about? Who wants to jump in here first?

Sahir Champion:

Go ahead. Go ahead. This is Diana again. Sorry about that surrogate. Currently I’m just a nerd when it comes to cameras and tech gear and stuff like that. So anything that comes out, I have to try it and test it and see what its limitations as well. Its advantages are because for me doing projects that start in small, you know, like no budget, all the way up to million dollar commercials and features, you know, there’s a camera that fits each and every circumstance. So for me currently I shot with the red Komodo and the red Gemini about two weeks ago. And then I have a shoot this weekend and I’m really excited about testing the Komodo and pushing the boundaries finding out about the one 20 frames at two K which obviously gives a, a very much crop sensor. So what would be a wide shot would be a closeup, but I’m really, really excited about the flexibility and portability of working with such a camera with such great resolution. I mean, I would have mentioned the same camera because I haven’t used it, but it’s pretty amazing for the price of everything they’ve put in there. And with accessories, it can go anywhere from a little portable camera with accessories, you can use it as a full camera and put it on a steady cam and all these things to you. So it’s, it’s actually pretty amazing what you can do now. And then with, with very little actually. Yeah,

Enrique Meza:

Yeah. I actually to jump in, I purchased one, so I got on the list that we’ve been using in our production. So we have a helium that we have for our production in house. And then we ended up buying the Komodo as a secondary camera and you’re totally right. I think the portability, the small factor, the, you know, we’re keeping it very slimmed down and just doing overheads or things like that, that just make it super portable and compact. You know, they did introduce Ken introduced a speed booster that even gave it that full frame look. So you have, you know, when you’re talking about crops and stuff, I think that’s something that we’ve been messing with because yeah, a two K crop on that sensor. It doesn’t, it’s not, not that it’s not usable, but I think it’s, it’s like, ah, it’s not the greatest thing. You know, you kind of really missing out on some stuff. So when you put in that speed booster that can, and just came out with we bought it as well. And like, it’s been nice to kind of have That wider field. So you’re, you’re, you know, you’re 35 or 50 is not getting cropped down to like a hundred or whatever. You know, it, you still have some usable real estate in that, in the frame and stuff. So it’s been, it’s been nice. Anybody else for managing, sorry, you go ahead. Sorry. Yeah, I’ve actually been, I’ve used the Komodo a few times. It’s been a blast and the one I’ve been playing with more lately is the 12th care. So which is just a different machine. Like it’s just its own weird thing for, it’s just, it’s super unique so far I’ve done five main like shoots with it and it’s held up great. It just getting used to the media is the only thing that’s been hard, but it’s been fun having that ability. Like I did one shoot in AK and for a 4k delivery and having that crop actually saved several shots for me because we only had a, we’re doing a shoot and that was at sunset.

Kevin Garcia:

So we had that one chance and talent had some issues. So we used that in our favor.

Glen Reed:

So I would have to say that I agree with Kevin. That’s what I was going to say was that [inaudible], I haven’t actually used it, but mainly I like the fact that black magic always disrupts the market. I mean, the fact that they’d come out with a 12 K sensor, a brand new sensor, that’s geared towards their be wrong and what they’re offering at their price point. I think that’s amazing. And it’s definitely going to affect the rest of the market. So that’s the one that excites me. Yeah. The one thing I’ll add on there that people may have not realized, and this is because I’ve used it several times now and I don’t have a lot of friends that have, cause it’s hard to it’s just so new is when you go down to 4k, you still get the full sensor readout without cropping in raw, which is kind of a whole new world. Yeah. That was like, that was a trip. Like, I mean, when you go to the super high framers this’ll crops, like it does 4k two 20, I think which, but yeah, if I’m doing eight K raw, 12 K route or 4k raw, it’s still the full, super 35 readout regardless, which is unheard of in any other camera that I’m aware of. Yeah.

Sahir Champion:

Yeah. I mean the problem, you know, the issue for me with black magic, because I also went out and bought a six K, which is freaking great. I mean right there, I got a couple of them, right?

Kevin Garcia:

Yeah. There’s the pocket 4k is the six Ks have been such good. Cause I have a studio back there and they’re just such good for throwing it up. It’s war, it’s quick. It works. It’s done. Sorry. I just overtook your conversation.

Sahir Champion:

Totally. The conversation we’re having, right. About the gear and the accessibility and the ease and the convenience, because a lot of the times, you know, running gun shoots are kind of, what’s where everything is kind of headed towards, you know, it’s like, you don’t have a big budget to be elaborate and do these like, you know, motion control shots. So it’s like, it’s like, you know, grab the camera, go kind of thing. And a lot of scenario and the smaller, more compact, portable, easy to use like black magic’s menu is awesome compared to the Sony. You know, I mean, I do like the Sony family, But it’s a little, it’s a little bit confusing if you’re not like a full DP, which I’m not at all. And you know, so when I’m messing with the menus and stuff it’s confusing as opposed to black magic. It’s like, bam, it tells you what frame rate tells you, what sensor? Very simple, very easy to use and very streamlined. Yeah. It feels like it’s like an iPhone. That’s how I see it.

Glen Reed:

It’s like, I feel like they took the iPhone menu and just like made it in the camera and they keep it the same across the board. So whether you’re using 4k 6k or 12k, you can easily jump from one to the other and be able to make the adjustments you need. Absolutely.

Susan Anzalone:

Have a question in the chapter, Andrea, I think it’s pronounced Andrea, hopefully. is there a cheaper alternative to the black magic?

Kevin Garcia:

I’ll I mean, I can run up that one real quick and, and Dre it, Andrea, can you elaborate a little more? Cause like the pocket 4k is their cheapest, like pro-sumer option, I think right now it’s 1295 or do you mean something on a less expensive realm than that? I’m just curious to like exactly what you’re asking. Okay. So less anyone less than 1295 what’s your go-to.

Matthew Baron:

But it used. Yeah. I mean, that’s, I’ll jump in, you know, selfish promotion, but really gear is changing at an, the fastest rate ever turnover of gear. It’s so fast. We’re all talking about 12 K eight K I’ve got the AK R five cannon. I’m a Canon guy, you know? So this is what I know. Right? Sure. You were saying Sony is confusing. Like I’m an old cat man. I don’t want to learn. I like my Canon menu. Please don’t change a cannon, but it works for me. Right. And to answer the question about price because of this new gear coming out, the 6k comes out, the 12 K comes out, the 4k you can pick up you is they sell really a lot on gear focus for like 700 bucks. So you can pick a used one up and sometimes it, you know, under a thousand with lens and cage and accessories, extra batteries and things like that. I think that’s the greatest thing about these manual manufacturers pushing the envelope. So like we all talked about Komodo. I own the, the Stormtrooper that was on the first list. We have to think companies like Z cam who came in and disrupted the industry by throwing something out there and forcing manufacturers to be like small and portable. Right. That’s what people need. Right. Throw it on a gimbal grab and go. I, I never have time with the stuff that I do for our YouTube channel and stuff like that. I don’t really have time to even barely put it on a hook up a whole rig. Right. And and I’m no cinematographer or a, you know, professional in that, in that era. So I think that, you know, to answer that question, you know, think about the fact that you could buy use, because someone like yourself, right? You said, I’m constantly testing new gear. You’re going to test through gear. It might not work for you. And it’s the same with somebody who’s just starting out. They go and they buy this brand new camera. They use it for a couple months. They realize it doesn’t fit their flow and they sell it to upgrade to the latest Sony. A one, you know,

Sahir Champion:

Strategy also is, you know, you could always partner up with friends or whomever are fellow filmmakers. And, you know, I highly urge and suggest people because you know, the prices, you know, like Matthew was saying, it’s like everything, new keeps coming out. By the time you get to really master the camera, there’s already something else out. And I would highly recommend collaborative groups and collectives to pool their money and resources together. So now, you know, if you were to get the black magic 6k, which body is about two K, if you got three friends, you split it and it’s like 700 bucks. And then you just start getting little accessories, you know, little by little, and then it becomes more affordable as opposed to this big daunting, overhead task.

Kevin Garcia:

Yeah. When I, when I, when I early on started, like I’d had a couple of friends that I worked with, like, I’m like, Hey, I’m going to buy, like, we all have like small cameras or we had like a light, just little pieces like, Hey, I’ll buy this. Don’t let me know. Don’t buy anything. Unless you talk to me first. If I already have it borrow mine and then I’ll do the same for you. And eventually we had like a small pool of gears, like cool. We have like five to 10 grand of gear that we all feel like we spent almost nothing on. Cause it was just a slow build as time goes and just, Hey, Leah, borrow that, Hey, I’ll give you 50 bucks instead of renting it from another site for 200, like it was kind of, you know, that small network and go such a long way.

Glen Reed:

I would say on the note too, of, you know, buying gear and, and the latest and greatest thing always coming out right around the corner, goes back to the iPhone analogy, you know, new one every six months. But it’s always good to look at the reputation of the company as far as updates and how they’re keeping the camera competitive. Cause like I have the Panasonic S one, I love that camera. It’s a full frame sensor. And any day now they’re going to upgrade it to 5.9 K raw. And you know, they’re taking a two year old camera and making it competitive with cameras that are four grand today.

Sergei Franklin:

So I want to add a few more things about when you buy a camera. I think it’s important to look at what you want to use it for also physically and also your work flow. And I mean physically, like if you want to put it on a steady cam, some cameras are terrible. Like I can see 300 might be a great documentary camera, but it’s terrible on a steady cam because has got one script and it just moves around. Same thing. The black magic with a Canon Mount is a mess because the Mount is not rigid. PL Mount might be different. I had one job with it. The lens is Always moving. Cause I put focus motors on it. So what’s great for one Alex, you might not work for another. And then the other thing to look at his posts, like almost already colors in DaVinci. So you want to make sure whatever format you’re on, it’s supported in DaVinci so that when you’re done, they don’t say, Oh, we can’t do this. You’re gonna have to transcode at first. So these are, you want always look at the whole picture of what you want to do and before you like get a camera

Kevin Garcia:

And I’m not sure, I’d say just rent one at, at the start. Like, I mean, I’ve done that before I wanted to buy something like, you know, I don’t know I’m going to rent it for the weekend for on share grid for 150 bucks. And I’m like, I hate this thing now. I’m not going to buy it. And then I just save that, that headache. And we’ve all done that like I’m sure it lenses, especially I’ve tested out so many lenses that way. Just over time,

Bruce Lundeen:

I’m out on the job with five cameras. I, I think I own every GoPro from the first one to nine and they all have different things. I need to be able to wake up from a dead sleep and hit the record button. And so for me the GoPros are all set up that way. I have, I have Sony cameras because I can switch the lenses with, with, with Sony, with Sony, with Sony lenses, I would love to have a Venice. I can’t afford it. My, my pick would be to get an FX nine. It’s got all the, it’s got all the ins and outs that I need without having to mess with other accessories. I can pull it up and shoot it right away. It’s got the same color science as the Venice. I can switch lenses with the [inaudible] that I’ve got in my, in my other pocket and it’s quick and easy and it looks good. And it’s not, it’s not cloogy I, I don’t, I don’t have to put a package together. It’s just, it’s just going to work. So, and Oh, and for Andrea, I would consider S Sigma FP. I don’t know how many other people are looking on the people that the cinematography mailing list CML are loving that camera. You can get like a lenses with it. I think it’s, it’s not expensive. It would be a cool way to start learning.

Susan Anzalone:

And we do have a question from Don in the chat. He says, thoughts on the micro four, three versus CMOs versus full frame, et cetera.

Kevin Garcia:

Now that’s a discussion who wants to take each sensor.

Matthew Baron:

Can I, can I take a stab at just initial response to get it, get it going? So when I, I went to school for photography, I’m a photographer. I wanted to get into video and I bought the GH four micro four thirds. So I went with micro four thirds, but I had a Canon 60. I still own it. That camera is magical for photography and it’s full frame. The GH for that, I upgraded to [inaudible] phenomenal camera, right? I mean, 4k 60, it’s got, it’s got all the bells and whistles and there’s benefits to the four third sensor. Like I throw a 100 to 300 millimeter lens on that thing. And I was like, you know, FBI agent filming like a 1200 millimeter equivalent lens. So, but I always struggled because I knew full frames so much that I got so much light in. Everything I do is low light. I never bring lights. It’s all natural light stuff that I do. So I struggled with the low light. Someone mentioned they owned the full frame S S one, right? Yeah. RI right. Glenn. Yeah. I thought about upgrading to that. But I have so much Canon glass. So I think the question also comes down to not just the sensor, but what type of work are you doing? Do you really do a lot of low light? Do you really need the, you know, 35 millimeter or a full frame sensor, or can you get away with the micro four thirds? Cause it’s really a fantastic system. I mean, it really comes down to what are you going to use it for? How are you going to use it the most?

Kevin Garcia:

And just general rule of thumb budgeting, micro lenses are cheaper than super 35 lens and super 35 lens are cheaper than full frame. It’s a, it can be a pretty wild scale when you get to that higher end. Yeah. Especially depending on what system you go with. Cause micro four thirds, obviously there’s, there’s hundreds of lenses out there. Lots of different manufacturers make them, but when you go to something like the L Mount with the S series from Panasonic, you know, there’s not a whole lot of lenses out there. And so if you want a good lens, you’re going to pay a lot for it. But you know, it really comes down to two. What’s your budget? What, what kind of you know, system do you need? What are you going to be using it for?

Matthew Baron:

You talked about lenses too. And when I got the JJ, the GH five, I was big like can FD lens shooter. And I actually have my 50 moment or 1.4 on my AR five right now. But this was my setup with my [inaudible] for like two years. Is that the lens? This is F D yeah. So, and it’s D clicked, you know? But that was, I read an article. I remember there was a guy that was like all about FD lenses with the [inaudible]. He had a whole website. I got, I was mad, but I learned so much about it. And it was so fun to buy vintage lenses and adapt them. And that’s a benefit of the micro four thirds system. And now mirrorless being able to adapt, you know, vintage lenses. Yeah. Because

Glen Reed:

I use quite a few FD lenses on my full frame and my micro four thirds. So it’s cool to have a system that you can swap lenses back and forth and be able to use them across the board.

Sahir Champion:

Yup. I mean, people don’t realize how important the glasses versus the camera people to put more emphasis on the camera body. When in actuality, if you, you know, you use a vintage lens, it’s gonna look amazing. It’s gonna look like something that no one’s ever seen before. And there’s a reason why lenses cost more than the frame box, you know, than the actual bodies.

Kevin Garcia:

Yeah. And they hold it value forever. Yeah. I mean, it’s like, it’s a weird investment. Cause it’s one of the few things after a certain point, the lens goes back up higher than it was when you bought it. If you hold it long enough, if it’s a good piece of glass

Sahir Champion:

Supply and demand because people can’t get it, it’s like, Oh, who’s got a in now you’ve got a high demand. And now you can charge more for it because there’s not many of them around

Kevin Garcia:

Oh yes. That was old, old, weird Russian lenses that would cost them.

Sahir Champion:

Those are, they look amazing.

Kevin Garcia:

Those anamorphics and all the weird adapted ones that you can find. Now that probably costs 50 bucks when they were out, because they were like kid toilets is to them at the time right now. Yeah. That’s where we should probably stop talking about them because the word’s going to get out and we’re all going to be gone.

Sergei Franklin:

But now, and I did that when I got my I’ve had, I have a red dragon VyStar with a red one, but I mean, I have a PMO when there’s a budget, but I bought a whole set of Nikon lenses like 10 years ago. So when I do small stuff, I put my Nikon Mount on. And I mean, I bought everything from fisheye to 400 like Whoa lenses, because they don’t, they were like $300 on eBay and I put a gear on and just made a system. So it sort of works. But then I know like now I don’t know how they are, but you can get these Chinese DCO lenses for like a thousand a piece. I’m kind of curious how good they are.

Kevin Garcia:

I just tested at four on a shoot. I had the two kids of him and they, I had him on actually on the 12th. Cares is, and they’re shockingly good. I had him outside. Both, most issues are outside and we ran them on run into and run into an, a movie, one of each and then one was on a slider. One was on a, I don’t know where the fourth one was. I think there’s another run in or something. They look great though. The 20 to 55 all the way out there, the edges are really a little wonky. So once you get to 22 work really well,

Sergei Franklin:

Primes, are you used to the zooms of the primes you test?

Kevin Garcia:

I was using the new zooms that set the 22 to 55 and the whatever.

Sergei Franklin:

Yeah. Because they have a whole set of prime. So it looks good. I think they’re full frame as well. Okay. So that’s for like eight, $8,000. You can have a complete set of prime lenses, like seven lenses or something. That’s pretty amazing. If you put the whole thing together, you can get a, a Comodo, a set of lenses. I mean, you get a Komodo with like a PL Mount and those lenses, you can get a Loose M1 Mac mini that run, You have a complete studio. That’s just about the same qualities of big Hollywood production. And that’s pretty amazing. All right. Yeah. There’s another question. A couple of Harris, he says, hi, what are your thoughts on the Panasonic Lumix [inaudible] and that whole line as a recent grad working as a PA and starting to put together a kit from scratch, it seems like a really attractive option. Not looking for the latest greatest,

Glen Reed:

You know, I’m, I’m a Lumix guy. Could probably answer that one. You know, I I’ve used a lot of different Lumix cameras all the way from the G seven G five S one. And, and I would say that the GH five, you know, I kind of skipped over that one and went to the S one just because they came out with the S one, but the GH five was, was a camera that I coveted for a long time. And it’s still very capable to do. I mean, you can even use it as a webcam if you want to, but I mean, it’ll put out some really awesome images and you know, for what it can do in body it’s you still have to spend a lot of money on it on a lot of other cameras to be able to compete with the GH five. So I would say it’s, it’s a great camera. And Matthew can probably say he sells a few of them used because they are great cameras.

Matthew Baron:

I actually just pulled it up. I didn’t even see this listing yet. This is an insane picture. First of all, I just have to show you guys. So can you guys see that? Okay. That’s a listing. Oops. That’s a listing for a GH five for like 2,600 bucks. That’s awesome. I mean like sliders, tripods cards, bags, I mean, multiple sliders, enormous microphones, you name it. And that’s the JJ five with the 12 to 35 lens, which if you’ve used it before is fantastic kit lens. It’s like Fuji 18 to 55. Like there’s just some kit lenses. They’re just phenomenal, like cannon. It was at the 24 to one Oh five F four, like that’s a workhorse, right. As a, as a college student or someone just starting out, you can’t go wrong with any of those options. So yeah, that one, like 2,600 bucks with everything.

Glen Reed:

Yeah. Especially when you consider the stabilization, you know, coming from like the GAD five, for instance, the stabilization on that thing is last year.

Matthew Baron:

Yeah. What he was saying though, that it has the GH five has dual Ibis with their native lens, like the 12 to 35 that has the eye. So it works together in tandem. So it’s insane. It’s insane. The stability that you can get handheld with that camera. And when I went and shy, I think I was shooting something on a one DX Mark, two or something. And I was like, my God, this is shake. Couldn’t get any steady footage out of it whatsoever. So for a beginner, that’s a, that’s a great option to anything with, you know, stabilizations good.

Enrique Meza:

Yeah. I felt like that was it. That I feel like anything nowadays, you know, I, I, people always ask me like, what camera should I get? You know, whether that’s stills or video. And I feel like anything in the last couple of years, then you’re going to, it’s gonna do a good job. You know, like I think, yeah, maybe stick with brand like lenses or brand, you know, choose one and maybe stick with that. And that might be what you use. You know, I think for, for my still work, I use Fuji and I have a GFX that I use and, and for our, our video work, we use the red and we’ve been using those kinds of, for, for a long time. But I think the big for me that my answer is always like, anything you’d get in the last couple of years is going to look like gray. I think, you know, for me, when I grew up, you know, I’m, I’m 40. And you know, I, I, I, if I wish I had an iPhone when I was in high school, or you can do so much stuff with the phone and you know, even a computer, I think I, you know, there was one computer when I was in high school, like at the library and that was it, you know? And then the GS four is a great camera. I mean, I’ve, I’ve shot some stuff with Doritos on it. And what I’ve learned through my career is that the cameras that gear are going to change. That’s really the operator behind it because when you get one camera, you’ll, you’ll learn, you know, this is good with low lighting, this one, I need a key and a fill. And so once you start to become a master in that realm, you’ll be able to adjust and learn with each camera as you build your career. But I would focus on the fundamentals, you know, knowing how to light and how to frame a shot and then eventually graduating because it makes no sense to go out and buy a read if you don’t have practical application of what to do and when to do.

Glen Reed:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I would, I would agree. Lighting is, is super important. I mean, you can, you can take a very cheap camera these days. Like I still have the G seven for a reason, you know, I can take that G seven and if I light a scene properly, I can get a pretty awesome image out of it. Even though it’s a six year old camera now in eight bit,

Kevin Garcia:

I mean, we’ve all seen shot on iPhone things and all the crazy stuff GoPros done off cameras, or that big of Burke did two movies on the iPhone and they were on Netflix. So yeah, but the size of the sensor does change. What you can do. The larger sensor gives you the opportunity to have selective focus better than with the smaller chips, a hundred percent just you pick up

Bruce Lundeen:

A one DX or one of these other cameras and you, and I mean, another thing I’m an older guy. I mean, I grew up with a Nikon 35 millimeter camera, and I know what a millimeter lens does in full frame. And I’ve always had to like, have my mind go create like, okay, what’s the, what’s the factor for this one? You know? So a 50 is a 35, right? Okay. So an 85 is a 50. So you know, if you’re doing portraiture with a regular K with a full frame lens of 50 millimeter and 85 millimeter or a one Oh five are the, the ones to go to. And that’s, that’s how my brain works today. And and the background goes really nicely out of focus at F two and a four. I mean, and things are still sharp. I mean, everybody, everybody speaks so highly of that, like a pop on still on still photos, the Leica pop part of it is depth of field and having, having the subject and the eyes being in focus. You know, so Greg, I don’t know you, everybody else has opinions about full frame versus super 35, for instance. I mean, why should I get one over the other

Sahir Champion:

Depends what you’re going to do with it, right? Like if you’re going to have something that’s got, now we’re gonna allow stuff that’s visually has a lot of visual effects. So I need as much room and resolute resolution on that frame. So you know, each project is different. Obviously being a master of each, like, you know, knowing what you’re going to use it for, and then just utilizing what you have, you know, for the most part, you know, you can always make something great. If you collaborate with your team, work with your DP talk to your post guys about, you know, workflow what’s going to be needed. And there’s always a way to figure it out. That’s what I love about this business. That there’s no set rule on how to do anything. And the fact that you can manipulate things and learn and collaborate to make it what you needed to be. So I think that’s very important to keep aware as well.

Sergei Franklin:

The focus gets very hard if you’re doing like a steady cam shot and full frame, one for I’ve done this, I was on a TV show. They were doing that. You better have a really good AC because it’s a really tough, and they usually bring all this stuff now, light range on everything because it’s very difficult and a wireless follow focus. Well, yeah, that’s for sure. I mean, that’s pretty much standard in the stuff I at work. Everything is, I mean, when I I’ve been doing this a long time too. So when I started saying we had to bring our fall focus, but now every the stuff I work is just normal. Everybody has a Preston for every camera and 11. Yeah. That, that, again goes back to like what you’re doing, because you know, if you are doing a lot of gimbal work, it’s, it’s probably best to go a smaller sensor,

Glen Reed:

So you can keep everything in focus. But if you need to go wide often, it’s probably best to go with like a full frame because you start to go with super 35 micro four thirds or something like that. And you go really wide. You start getting a lot of distortion, things like that. So it goes back to what, what are you doing with it? Yeah. I mean, micro four thirds in my M in my opinion, like running gun, it comes in super handy. Like if you’re idiots you by yourself, that’s always a safer, I think, a safer bet because it just, it’s easier to keep it, them focused if you’re just on a screen that big and doing it by the barrel, you only have so much. All right, Susan.

Susan Anzalone:

Yeah. Yeah. Here’s a question from Kevin touching a little bit on what you guys were kind of talking about a moment ago. He says what means M 43 S35 full frame in the practice besides lens value and how much light they can capture?

Glen Reed:

I think we’ve just about covered everything.

Susan Anzalone:

Okay, perfect. And one more question from Kevin. This is for Enrique, he says, Hey, Enrique, could you tell us about the advantages of global shutter in the red komodo?

Enrique Meza:

Yeah, I mean, I’m not sure if I’ve had an opportunity to, to really test out the global shutter as much as maybe, you know, I don’t do a lot of sports stuff or, you know, falling cars or any high action type stuff. So I’m not sure if I, if I can give you a definitive answer on that. I know the roller shutter is great. I’ve definitely shot stuff out of a car, like a vehicle or somebody walking and things like that. And that’s helped prevent some of that wobble in the background. But yeah, I’m not sure if that’s like if I buy a camera necessarily because of, of a global shutter. Right. I think, I think that’s a great plus to have in the Como for sure. For me, the Komodo was more about size and the advantage of having just a small little build with the red codec and being able to kind of have the red sensor and all that sort of stuff built in. So yeah, I would just add for the global shutter, you’re really going to see that, like, if you shoot helicopter blades or a fan or something, that’s quick moving fast or that that’s the only time. So 90% of the time, it’s not an issue, but for those few shots, that’s when it really helps out of a car and you’ll see that the bending lines. Yeah. So that’s really what it’s good for.

Matthew Baron:

We did some, we did some testing when we had the, when we first got the Stormtrooper and we did some videos on our YouTube channel and we were doing the global shutter tests. And even just a car going by where there was a rail in the background. So it’s not just like helicopter blades is a great, that’s the best example, like a fan, right. Where you’re going to really see the wobble. But you can really see without the global shutter, you can see the, the rail, it was like a country road with like, you know, rail on the side. And it was like curved, completely curved. But on the Komodo, it was perfectly straight. It was a locked off shot, no as handheld. Oh, wow. So it was even it was like follow the car, right. It’s on our YouTube channels. So the guy who asked the question, I can check it out at the gear focus, YouTube channel there’s a shot, you know, we’re, you know, we’re actually following the car.

Matthew Baron:

I think it’s just an amazing camera that, you know, we keep saying it again and again, technology is moving so fast. It’s so fun. I mean, you know, Bruce, you were talking to me, started on 35 millimeter film. So di was in a dark room, you know, when it was light out. And I came out when it was dark out and then that’s how I started to, but we’re moving at such a fast pace. It’s so exciting because like Glen said, you could buy a camera that’s five years old and produce amazing content with it. For me, the one bit of advice for a new, a new person, whatever you choose, sleep and eat with that camera. No, that camera, I used to literally lay in bed at night and study the menu because I’d get on a shoot and I’d go, where’s that set now with the digital screens? Like where is that set up? Your quick menus? Like the [inaudible] has the your favorites, right? Like your one, two, three, whatever it is. So you can have it set to 4k 60, you can have it set to 23, nine, eight for regular things that you’re shooting, whatever you’re shooting and, you know, get to know your camera and stick with it. And I think, you know who was it? Enrique? You were saying you shoot red and like a fur still, But then it’s like, why change? Yeah. You might need to use something else and play around with something else, but like learn something and learn it really well. And know that ecosystems Sony works for a lot of people. Sony is a great camera that [inaudible] still the top selling used camera on your focus. [inaudible] Like they sell people buying and selling them every day of the week. It’s crazy.

Sahir Champion:

Well, the study is really great for multipurpose, right. So if you’re shooting video and stills, it’s like, you don’t want to have two different cameras, you know, it’s like, it all depends really. I mean, once again, it always boils down to what you’re using it for and how you

Glen Reed:

Yep. Yeah. That’s the same thing with my S one, you know, it’s, I, I got it because it’s a hybrid for both video and photo, you know, I can take almost like 96 megapixel, high resolution shots with it, and I can do 4k 68 in 10 bit, you know, so I can do a lot a lot with that, but I can tell you, I do wish it had global shutter because I’m in Florida. And if I wanted to simulate a outside, all I have to do is stick it on my car while I’m driving.

John Daly:

All right. We’ve got about five minutes left. Let me just throw this out here. Why, why do Hollywood cinematographers tend to prefer the Aerie over the red,

Sergei Franklin:

But a lot has to do with marketing. It’s like, if I can ask anybody, like, why do you buy one brand or another? It’s all advertising. It’s also because the camera’s been our area’s been around for like a hundred years. So people know it, red was something new showed up like 15 years ago, but it’s been picking up a lot. I mean, if you look at it, it’s pretty much this whole high end world is owned by, by Alexis red and the Sony Venice. Actually the Sony Venice is a first Sony camera that broke through. They’ve been trying and they started digital cinema and all this, but this is the first one that broke through. And it, I don’t think it makes a difference. I’ve talked to many GPS that they’ve tested all three. It really, you know, if you’re shooting raw, it doesn’t really matter. So it just becomes like a personal thing and what, you know, and, and then everybody’s like, Oh, he used a time and use it. So there’s a lot, but I’ve seen all of those cameras are doing steady cam they’re all around. And remember that Panavision built their DSL based on a red and a patient knows they service. Most of the Hollywood shoots most of the time when I work on a big shoot with the gear comes from the innovation. Yeah. So

Enrique Meza:

That goes back to lenses. I think lenses make such a big difference in everything. You know, that

Sahir Champion:

It’s amazing at pan of, if you go to Panavision, you just have so much more. But yeah. I mean, I, I, when I I mean, I work, you know, since I live here in Los Angeles, I work a lot with like cut top color houses, like company three Apache color. And when I speak to the colorist, w they, they generally do like the Ari, they say because of the sea Moss and range. But you know, when red first came out, I was like, peop people didn’t know that they had to shoot it raw. So they would bake in a lot and stuff. And then the color was wouldn’t have as much flexibility during color session. So once people started to figure out, Oh, okay, we could shoot it raw, really flat, and then make sure it’s properly exposed. So that later on in color, they can bring it out. So generally speaking, when it comes out of Ari, it comes out a little bit, you know, you don’t have to do like invest light dailies or a first run of color. And red obviously worked around that with their Lutz and things of that nature, but it’s really up to the cinematographer because, I mean, you can, if, if, if you have a really good DP, you will know which camera he shot it on.

Kevin Garcia:

That’s true. Good. Anybody else? Okay, good DPN amazing colorist. You can make it don’t make anything look like anything else. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like going back to like those shot on iPhone, Apple commercials, you know, they’re going hard in post to make it look way better than it ever should. Things are out same with like DJI when they do that, their drone announcement. I mean, a Maverick looks amazing, but our magic never looks that good. And unless you send it to someone who is that good. Right, right. Yeah.

Matthew Baron:

If you shoot it correctly with correct lighting too. So you know that they had a thousand dollars worth of lighting gear for the [inaudible]

Kevin Garcia:

And the guy who designed the sensor on the field, making sure everything is the way it is for that particular thing. I mean, you guys saw the spot that I believe it was David Licht did for Apple, with the snow on the ice. Gorgeous Crudo. I mean, that’s the thing that most of us probably have on our shoots. So it’s like, yeah, you shot an iPhone. But you know, my favorite is when those photos leak out, after the fact it’s shot on an iPhone, but you have like a real lens attached to it. They put it, they put an anamorphic lens in front of it, some and made it just work. I’m like, Oh, okay. So that’s what they really did on this giant, like slider, what an iPhone.

Glen Reed:

Well, you know, one thing I could say about like the iPhone stuff that kind of maybe scares me or bums me out a little bit is, is what they’re doing with AI. I mean, I think it’s cool, but at the same time, I love my craft and I love what I do. I like the art of it. And I like being able to control everything, you know, every aspect of what I’m doing. I don’t, I don’t use any autofocus nothing. And what LIDAR and all that is starting to do is, is really changing things to where they’re making these cameras do a lot of stuff on their own and, you know, adjusting dynamic range in the camera and stuff like that. And it really makes me think, man, what’s, what’s the future coming to with, with cameras in our craft.

Matthew Baron:

I just had that same thought, like the AI side of what’s happening with the phones. How are manufacturers going to start applying that into real cinema cameras and photography cameras with face recognition and depth of field change? Like what’s actually possible, but what’s going to come first because right now it’s all about resolution. Everything has been four K six K eight, K 12, K like we’re going to tap out on caves pretty soon. You know, we’re going to be Nolan Ryan with the perfect strikeout record, and then we’re going to go to something else.

Kevin Garcia:

Low light battle that was a fun one.

Matthew Baron:

Yeah. Low-light battle dynamic range, right? Yeah.

Kevin Garcia:

We’re ready for another round of that.

Matthew Baron:

I love, I love light. In fact, a question before we get off topic of the RA, because I never got to shoot or edit area’s footage, but red just plays like butter. I mean the red Kodak, they, they knocked Out of the park that, that science that they have for you guys that have worked with ours. Is it similar?

Sergei Franklin:

Yeah. I mean, that’s pretty much all the same. You put that into Vinci or whatever you’re calling and you can just in matter, it’s actually a little quicker because you don’t have to decompress. It it’s a little less, but today, I mean, that was a problem that early today, the computers, like, as I said, these new M Apple computers, I’ve heard, I haven’t tested them can play at six 6k right. Footage in real time. So we’re getting to them resolve. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s also, maybe some, anybody starting, you can get DaVinci for free. It’s worth trying, even if you don’t want to become a colorist, if you color stuff, then also, you know how to talk to college and you understand what you can do with your footage. So it’s really good to just play a little with that and get a feel for that.

Sahir Champion:

If you’ve got a black magic six K, you’re going to have to have resolve if you shoot raw, because you’re going to have to use that to transcode it. So it’s like same thing with red. It’s like, you know, in the past it was like, Oh my God, I got these big, big are 3d files. What am I, Oh man, we have to transcode for three days before we can start, you know? Yeah. I often make dailies because then I can put a look in already the way I want it to look and I get a feel what I did. So, but I mean, that’s the right way to do it. Right. Cause yeah. You know, like Glen was saying, it’s a process, right? So at us as collaborative filmmakers, we really enjoy the process of filmmaking versus like I have a client and he’s like, no, no, no, we have to start editing on set. Oh man. You know? So it’s like all these other issues that kind of snowball and affect all the other issues down the road. Yeah. I mean, I come from film. So you didn’t even get your film back that next day and transfer. So yeah, the recorded deck. Right? Well, whatever it was, it was the music videos we did. I’ve been producing music is in nineties already there go to Digi beta or something and then go, do they do the look and the transfer? And that was it. You did look when you transferred. Not after the cut.

Susan Anzalone:

Well, everybody, Oh, sorry to interrupt you. This is awesome discussion. We can come back in just a second. We need to do our trivia question first, if we can real quick, so people can win this great prize. So we’ll do our trivia time and then after we’ll fit some more discussion and questions in real quick. And then we’ll, we’ll go to our wrap up. So here is our trivia question. What listing displays first on the shoots.video site for Portland, Oregon. Now please type your answers in the chat box. The first correct answer. We’ll get a $50 BNH photo gift card. So go for it, everybody. I’ll read the question one more time. What listing displays first on the shoots.video for Portland, Oregon. Okay. Now somebody needs to play the jeopardy ding dong song as we were waiting. So here we have a winner, the first person with the correct answer. Arnav Bali looks like yes. Arnav Bali. Congratulations. You win with the answer, which is the photo told pictures, phototold pictures, LLC. We did have some runners up with the correct answer, but they were the first one. So congratulations Arnav Bali. And now we can fit a couple more questions in, I think before we go to our wrap up. So John, do you have something else?

John Daly:

You got it. I got a couple here. We actually, I wanted to talk about the evolution of the digital cinema cameras in the future. And we kind of touched on that. So if somebody wants to jump in on that or how would you describe your perfect camera? So either one of those two questions, if somebody wants to jump in and kind of fill us in on that.

Enrique Meza:

I’ve been thinking about like, what do I want in a maybe perfect camera? I think the only thing I feel is always missing is, you know, especially more in the cinema line is like built in these, right. I think, you know, like the [inaudible] is one that we didn’t really touch on that I feel is probably another great camera that’s just coming out. That also has a lot of the things that are built in that, you know, it doesn’t have RA, but you know, some of those things that are just make it super compact and portable, but like Andy’s, I mean, red doesn’t have any Andes. I think Ari has NDAs, but all, all the C 100 C lines of the Canon have built-in Andes. And it’s like a small little nitpick thing, but I feel like, you know, maybe the stage, they should have built an NDE than most, most cinema cameras.

Matthew Baron:

Now that it comes out with the the mounts, right. That have the filters in them for, you know, like the Canon RF, Mount converter. And they had sits in between that.

Enrique Meza:

I’ve seen that too. And I, you know, there’s one thing to have it just like built in and I used to use [inaudible] before I’d see 300. And like, I love just pushing a little by in minutes and it comes right out.

Glen Reed:

So that new Sony FX6 has, has electronic Sandy and the autofocus on that thing is insane. Yeah. Once you use the variable and D you’ll never go back, I honestly, you can set auto variable N D and it will match as you walk through a doorway into darkness. I mean, it’s phenomenal and a stack list too, so you don’t even notice it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sahir Champion:

And that’s needed. That’s how you can also tell, like, for me, it’s like, you know, the way it’s shot is exposed when it goes from outside to inside, you know, you, you know, this level of professionalism and you know, when you first started now, you’re like, Oh, I don’t know how to do that. Or, you know, so like, as you, as you develop, you will get better and better and your work will look better and better.

Enrique Meza:

Yeah. I always try and preach to people. Like, let’s just try and get the writing camera. Right. Let’s not rely on post or anything. Like that’s going to take us another 10, 15 seconds to put a different ND filter on let’s do it so that we don’t have to worry about adjusting f-stop or whatever to compensate for it. Right. Let’s just get, let’s get a consistent look and feel for it.

Glen Reed:

Yeah. You know, one thing I would say that I, I think my perfect camera would have you know, there’s a lot of things that I would like to have, but I know the reds use like the red mags and, and, you know, the black magic, you know, they all have the ability to record straight to SSD, but I wish more cameras, especially since now a lot of them have USB type C you know, I wish they would all record to SSDs because there’s so much cheaper and you can just hold so much more data than, you know, using SeaPass cards. Yeah. That’s been a huge one for me. I mean, most of my cameras are black magic. Like I’ve had, I’ll do a shoot having like a T five plugin. And when it’s over, like, here you go. Like, it doesn’t even have to go to my computer.

Kevin Garcia:

Just like, Hey, don’t lose that on the drive back. And like, I’m done it just, it just saves a step and yeah. And then they can edit on that drive and bring it back to me. And it’s like, yeah, it’s just, and it’s so much easier than like, hold on, let me dump this card. It’s like, Oh, describe another drive. Like you can end, you can actually go to best in a pinch. You could actually go to best buy and get one on like a see fast. You’re not going to get one of the pinch. Okay.

Sahir Champion:

Well, that’s where the that’s where it’s going to like read and all those, you know, cause like everything with the red is like proprietary. So you got to buy their thing. So like, you know, that, that old model of doing business is going to be passe and outdated very soon. You know what black magic is doing with those drives, you know, the DIT is jobs easy. Okay. Thanks for the drive. And then you just keep shooting versus man, we gotta dump this car. We gotta wait. Oh my God, it’s gonna take 20, 30 minutes. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Kevin Garcia:

His hard drive one and hard drive too. There you go.

Sergei Franklin:

Light. I like to make two copies right away on set, but I back up to SSD drives now from my red. So then that’s pretty fast. That’s not really a, a time problem for me.

Sahir Champion:

Well, that’s something that they’ve developed over time, right?

Sergei Franklin:

Well, I mean, I buy those internal as like a dual doc. So as soon as I’m done with the card, I put it in and dump it to two SSD drives. Awesome. And then I’ll give one to the client right away and I’ll take one home to make dailies or something, but I want to always have at least two to start. So if there’s one and that thing gets lost, the whole shoot’s gone. So, so yeah,

Glen Reed:

That goes back again to black magic disrupting things. Because I remember one red took a lot of heat when they found out that those thousand dollars red mags were really not, not what they were cracked up to be when they opened them up Toshiba drives or something. Yeah.

Sergei Franklin:

Yeah. But they actually, they work pretty well. I’ve had mine for years. Like, I mean, I w after the dragon didn’t update, but that those things keep working stuff is very reliable. So for me, these cameras were great. I didn’t have any complaints. I mean, if I look at my five-year old dragon and the new ones, the only real differences, low light, that’s the big step from the dragon to like the monster and the Gemini is that, but I’m usually working with lights and set up. I don’t really do docs. So that’s not really an issue for me.

Glen Reed:

Well, don’t get me wrong. I would love to be working on red. I just wish their prices would come down comparable to other people’s.

Enrique Meza:

Yeah. Yeah. It’s not just the price, the sticker tag of the Bobby, you know, you’re talking to another four or five K on yeah. Battery media, whatever. However, you’re going to rig it out. So the prietary parts just, what’s hard too, with that particular brand, for me, just being confined to like, Oh, I can only use the things that are made for it, but it does produce an incredible image. Well, the first step, right, exactly. That was definitely a cool pivot. The camera was actually designed as a stunt camera first for Hollywood production crash and beat up and not have to worry about it. But I mean, you know, to your point I believe the Komodo does have built-in NDAs. Is that right? SOGI? No. Well there’s options. So there’s always people making mounts for it. Then I saw some of the people making the PLM out half with built-in cause I’ve been looking what’s out for it. And for me, I’d have to get an external, like PL Mount, which rigid because otherwise you have a Wadley RF mound. Yeah.

John Daly:

All right. One more comment. Now we’ve got to go folks. Okay. Anything else? What else? No.

Kevin Garcia:

Yeah, it was nice meeting everyone.

John Daly:

Yeah. It’s been really helpful. Thank you. Great info and advice. And also, thanks for tolerating. The fact that Susan and I shoot a whole TV show off the iPhone. You need, You didn’t try to kill it. It’s all.

Glen Reed:

They say the best cameras that camera you have. That’s right

John Daly:

So before we go, I want everyone on the panel just to tell us where we can find them on social media and other places. Let’s start with Glen.

Glen Reed:

So you can find me on YouTube. That’s just YouTube/GlenReed. Glen with one end and it’s at fullresGlen on Instagram. All right. My website fullresolutionmedia.com.

Sergei Franklin:

I actually just posted my website, but my website is sergeifranklin.com. I just put it in the chat so people can just look up my stuff there.

Bruce Lundeen:

I’m going to do the same thing. I’m at light-raves.com.

Sahir Champion:

You can find me on my website, which is sahirchampion.com. And my Instagram is at S7 Studios or Sahir Self Savior as well on Instagram.

Kevin Garcia:

My soundstage is mixonesoundstage.com, which I threw in the chat and my Instagram is just Kevin Stuff.

Matthew Baron:

gearfocus.com. You can get to all our social media and everything, and you can sign up for free and start buying and selling gear. My production company is mezafilms.com and then you can see my personal stuff on Instagram, on my full name Enrique Meza. So I’ll throw that in the chat as well. Yeah.

Susan Anzalone:

All right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. John and I are Undercover Jetsetter it’s a TV show on travel, food, wine, mixology, and golf. As you heard, we shoot it entirely on the iPhone. We use the iPhone 11 pro I know somebody had asked about that and we are looking forward to using the 12 because we did hear that it camera’s about 80% better on the 12th. So we would love it. If you could subscribe to our show on YouTube at undercover jet setter, I put it in the chat also it’s youtube.com/undercoverJetsetter.

John Daly:

And to add insult to injury, we wrote a book called the TVC, go in your hand to teach people how to shoot off the iPhone. It’s also on Amazon. So if you get a chance, take a look at that. Hey, we have had a great time. Thank you to the panel. Thank you to everybody. Who’s been listening here and hopefully we’ll do it again. Good night, everybody.

John Daly:

And I know everybody amazing panel. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

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