Our 9th webcast where Justin discusses Getting Hired by Production Company with a handful of production companies.

 

 

Discussion Topics:

-Process for hiring support crew.

-Process for hiring on camera & voice talent.

-Favorite websites for finding talent & crew.

-Getting to the top of the vendor list.

-Full-time employment.

 

Panelists:

Justin McAleece – Blare Media

Sania Jhankar – Luminoustudios

Richard DePaso – Aardvark Video

Daniel Marlow – LemonLight

Torrey Tayenaka – Sparkhouse

Anita Casaline – Beyond Pix Studios

 

Justin McAleece:

Hi, this is Justin, with Shoots.Video here today to do another crew talk webcast. So super happy to have a big group here. We got Daniel Marlow, Sania Jhankar, Richard DePaso and Torrey Tayenaka. Yeah. And Anita Casalina and I am Justin McAleece, like I said, and we’re ready to talk a little bit about production companies. And we’re really talking about like how you get hired, you know, going out to the people who want, who are for their job. You want to be a part of this business who would like to get hired, who would like to know how those things work, who haven’t really been around, but want to understand. So I’m sorry about that. And yeah, so let’s just get right into it. If you guys get to go real quickly and just sort of describe what you do and where you work and we can go from there. You starting with, yeah. Let’s. Let’s start with, I’m sorry, I got kicked off here. Let’s start with Daniel camp. Sure. hi everyone. I’m Daniel. I’m our chief creative officer here at lemon lights. We specialize in making branded content for various brands in a team about full time 50 full time employees. Right now I’m a little less with the pandemic and yeah, just specialize in making, you know, lots of different branded content from all kinds of various brands. Yeah. Good. And Sania. Okay.

Sania Jhankar:

Hi everyone. My name is Sania. I am the head of production at Luminoustudios. We are also abandoned video production company. We have an office in New York and in LA and as Daniel mentioned, we do a bunch of commercials, crowd funding, videos, marketing videos what have you, we consider ourselves the one stop shop for video. So yeah, that’s a quick brief.

Justin McAleece:
That’s great. Thank you, Richard.

Richard DePaso:

Yeah. Hi everybody. I’m Richard DePaso From Aardvark Video in Las Vegas. We’ve been in business a very long time first in New York and in 2002, since then in Las Vegas. And we’re a B to B video production company. And that’s all aspects of what a business is looking for commercials, marketing, sales training, and out here, because the nature of the market, what we’ve done primarily for several years is primarily trade show work. And as everybody knows, there, isn’t too much of that going on out here right now.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, a little, a little slow for a lot of us in a lot of different ways. Especially if you’re doing live shoots concerts and in any type of trade show like that or anything with music or sports or any of that. That’s a, those are rough times right now. So I have some friends that do that and yeah, they’re definitely looking for ways to get some other streams of income.

Richard DePaso:

What we’ve, what we’ve done is we’ve gravitated to producing virtual events. So also okay. Cause there’s no doubt that that’s the direction while that’s where we are right now.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it’s it’s kinda crazy to, what’s not available to buy like all those, a lot of the hardware to get into that stuff is very much in demand right now and sort of hard to get ahold of. So,yeah. I think if you already had some of that stuff to go into these times, you’re a little bit better off. Torrey?

Torrey Tayenaka:

Hi, I’m Torrey Tayenaka. I run Sparkhouse we’re in Orange County, California. We do what we call strategic brand videos. So really it’s it’s video production and animations, but with a focus on the strategy side. So we partner with a lot of different advertising agencies to run full campaigns, whether it be like Facebook ad campaigns or integrations into apps integrations into websites and things like that. So it’s kinda same as everyone else. You know, we, we claim we can do anything video. And we’ve actually worked with lemon light in the past. I work, I know Chad over there. And so we’ve you know, our team is based in, in orange County, like I said, so when we need stuff out of the state or in different areas we definitely tap into those different networks and work with against.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, totally. I mean, they’re, yeah, there’s probably other connections here that are just, you know, one or two levels deep that we don’t even know that we have. I mean, it’s a very small industry when you really get down to it. That’s great. Anita?

Anita Casalina:

I’m Anita Casalina and I am the owner and CEO of BeyondPix, a studios BeyondPix SF is what we call ourselves now. The company is 27 years old now, maybe even a little bit older and I bought it a year and a couple months ago and we have you know, it’s a, it’s a small company, but with a really long history of production. But what we have is unique is we have two side-by-side broadcast studios. And if you do watch the national or international news and you see somebody with the golden gate bridge behind them, they are up here in our studio. So that’s why I bought the company cause I was here. I was a client here for a long time and the company was going under, they were having a hard time and I thought, you know what? This is such this amazing stream. You just sit and wait for calls from the, well, as, you know, just like Richard has said, now that everything has changed, the world is sort of upside down. People aren’t that much coming in to the broadcast studio anymore. But luckily what I also have downstairs is a soundstage that I completely remodeled and I fitted for a live streaming with a robotic cameras and a Bemix system. And we did that in anticipation of, Hey, this is an upcoming market, you know, not knowing that, Oh, Hey, we’re going to really need this. So, so there’s very little on the broadcast to do, although Nancy Pelosi’s coming in next week again. So I do, I get, I still get to hobnob with some of these, you know, the luminaries, but, but but yeah, it’s been really good that we were positioned, like you were saying, Justin, we positioned ourselves in advance because you’re right. Everything is back ordered right now. If you want to, you want to buy any of the hardware, you want to get things up, we’re building a second Beemix system and we’ve been, you know, putting things together. But yeah, so we have, you know I think we have a production van. We do all kinds of, we’ve done commercials. We’ve done a lot of live of live shows live streams big, big clients for many years, you know, that’s, that’s what 27 years I’ll get you, you know, you get a lot, a lot of clients, but, but now, you know, in this changing market we’re having to really navigate where’s the market going what’s happening. And, and like you’re saying with a lot of these canceled conferences and things like that one person can sit on the soundstage and talk to their constituents.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, that’s one of those things in our industry in most industries, probably it’s like when you need the thing, you already have to have it either sitting in the sitting in the truck or sitting back at the studio or you need to have those for people specifically for crew members, you need to have them ready. You need to know who they are, know that they’re good, know that they’re going to be a few people deep so that if they’re busy, you can call the next person in line. And so that’s really what we’re talking about today is like, how do you guys find your employees? How do you find freelancers and those types of things Daniel, let’s start with you. How, how do you get approached by people and how do you hire the fulltime people or how do they do it at Lemonlight, at least sure.

Daniel Marlow:

As far as just the full time roles. You know, we typically here you know, we hire everyone from sales marketing to pre production and post production. We typically hire full time when we hit our bandwidth within that department. So, you know, really when the kind of demand is there to build out each department with, you know, Mo more people, that’s just typically when we, that.

Justin McAleece:

And what are you looking? What are you looking for? Like, what’s, what’s some of the most important things you could find it, someone like that.

Daniel Marlow:

Yeah. I mean, you know, we’re always looking for talented people, I think just first and foremost. And then through our interviewing process, you know, we, we do focus on just getting to know the individual, focusing on their skillset and making sure that they understand what we’re asking of them. And I think you know, with our full time team, we’re always looking to just bring additional like-minded talented people together that, that ultimately create the foundation for just what is a really great team. Yeah.

Justin McAleece:

Gotcha. A lot of it’s probably fit to more than like, it’s one thing to find someone who seems really great, but maybe they’re not the right fit for one reason or another what you’re doing. Do any of you guys find that to be true? Yeah, Richard,

Richard DePaso:

Yeah. You know we scale up to whatever our project requires and out here, some of the projects have been between 20 and 30 people, or they could be smaller. We can just send one or two people out on a job and people approach us quite frequently in good times looking for work. And we’ll never really take anybody at their face value over the phone. We asked them to come in here. And two of the things that we look for right away is that they get here on time and that they’re presentable. And if they’re neither of those, well, they’ve got two and a half strikes against them already because that’s not going to go very well when we put them in a, in a situation with clients. And then what we’ll do is we’ll run them through what, I guess you would call tests sort of an addition audition process. And we’ll ask them what equipment they’re familiar with. And again, rather than taking that at face value, we’ve got enough different types of equipment that we can just pull one out the same or similar to what they’re talking about and ask them questions about it, let them start operating it. And you’d be surprised how many people think they know video theory, video concept, and operation, but they really don’t. They don’t understand exposure. They don’t know how to use the zebra. They don’t know degree Kelvins and we kind of find out what they do now.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. I definitely do a little bit of that. I do a little bit of quizzing. I have my little things. I didn’t say what’s four stops brighter than F-2 or whatever darker than F-2. And I’ll sort of see what they have to say. Cause there’s some really easy questions. I’ll ask them when you get the answer. You’re like, Oh, it’s eight. That’s simple. But for when they’re thinking about it and stuff like that. So there’s, there’s some shorthand within trying to find people to be able to see just where they’re at. I think that’s important. And Nita, you were going to say something.

Anita Casalina:

I started laughing when you were talking about presentable and that kind of thing. Cause I, or, or punctual because there was a guy that I would really want. I thought, I thought I needed some engineering support. So I’m a little bit different maybe than some of these bigger companies. Cause we’re a pretty small company. And you know, we try to stay really mobile and you know get, get projects that we can do in house. For the most part. And I wanted to hire some engineering support. Somebody came really highly recommended, but he was late three times in a row, you know, and that was, and, and just didn’t have, what, what matters to me also is people who can be relational, meaning they look at you, they talk to you. They’re not just looking at the gear, you know, they, because when you, if you feel like you have the confidence to send somebody out in the field without you, or without, you know, somebody who’s a senior partner it’s, you need to know that they can handle themselves with all kinds of people. And and I think that’s really important. So, so it’s a lot of, there’s somebody now who’s coming in secondarily to that first guy that we had coming in and he is doing so well. We are now currently migrating from this great big machine room. That’s down one floor from us. But because technology has changed, we’re able to really consolidate, everything’s going to go into a few racks in the back of our broadcast control room and he is helping design it. He’s really calm and patient he’s on time. He’s so anyway, it’s, it’s those kinds of characteristics and

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, it’s really comes down to the total package and that’s what you’re searching for. And that sometimes it feels like a needle in a haystack sort of search Sania, where do you guys go to find people? You know, if you’re looking for someone in say a certain city that you guys don’t usually operate in, you sort of find someone there or just some of the people that you’re used to working with are no longer available for that sort of thing. How do you find people? What, what online stuff, especially?

Sania Jhankar:

So usually actually we end up hiding most of the people we work with based on recommendation, either, either recommendations from crew members who are senior within the same department, or, you know, and other producers who have worked with seminar crew members, we hire a lot of freelancers almost on a regular basis, but then it’s if it’s a DP or an editor or, you know, anything in between really as, I’ve been trying to kind of pick up as needed a little bit. And what I think the ways that people have reached out to us that actually does work out is that we have a contact us page on our website and we’ve had a lot of new members us, but it’s interesting when an editor reaches out and doesn’t share the link right up front and, you know, that’s like a red flag because it wouldn’t, you want to show up your way. So we kind of look for things of that nature as well. I think a lot of, lot of what we depend on is making sure that the crew we liked, we work on for say once on a shoot, we want to make sure that we really ask assets, how reliable they are and if they are reliable and we can rely on them beyond that. I think it makes producer’s job really easy because then that’s one less thing to worry about. So I feel like people who can demonstrate that onset, we try to test them out on smaller shoots and then try to get them on bigger shoots. It has us feel more comfortable with them. And I think yeah, I think the recommendations we used to put out job descriptions on indeed and Mandy and all of that stuff. But I think now we have enough on our Rolodex where it’s usually word of mouth and but we do look at every email that comes into our inbox saying that, you know, I am, I am a storyboard artist to, you know, I’m a DP do whatnot. And we, we actually take them pretty seriously. So if it’s a, if it’s an email that has the right important information, we will we will access it. The one thing I will say that is a big challenge for us, many times, it wasn’t the big industry is that a lot of the times a crew member is either talented or really great to work with. And what we’re usually looking for is a combination. Someone who can really know the job, but also speak up and communicate effectively during and before issues. So those are the things that I’m really looking forward and Julie, any crew member.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. It’s a tough thing. Finding people that are good at enough of the things I used to play Dungeons and Dragons as a kid. And I always think about like all of the attributes that a character has in any of the role playing games. And it’s like, sort of, that’s how you can look at, you know, not a person, but at least an employee or a freelancers. Like they’re good at these things, but not so much at that. And you’re sort of trying to tailor each crew, each shoot each chemistry, to make sure that it fills in, right. And so you have people that are good at certain things weeks and strengths, weaknesses, and strengths, sort of combined to have a really good crew and a really good setup going forward. Yeah, so I was gonna say to Torrey it’s like, how do you, how do you keep a list of those people? How do you guys remember who’s who and how to find them?

Torrey Tayenaka:

So the people that reach out to us, we have them actually fill out a type form a form on our website that puts in their information. They can put in, if it’s a freelancer, that’s looking for like a day rate you know, we put what they, they would put input their requested day rate that they want a demo, real things like that. And we actually can search that database really easily when we need freelancers. But most of our team is pretty tight knit. We, we hire a lot since we are in orange County and we, we shoot mainly locally. We have good relationships with the schools, so I have film teachers at Chapman, long beach, Saddleback junior college, USC that all would just recommend certain people or they, they would tell them to apply. And then I go and ask those teachers if they’re in a good and, and that’s kinda how we hire our full time staff.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. That’s a great idea. I mean, you, they be, teachers are going to have a good sense of like, who’s really putting out the effort who’s going over and above what they have to do within classes. When I went to film school I definitely knew that the course load wasn’t as much as it was. And other majors, I was a mechanical engineering student for a couple of years. And the course load was so much less than I knew it was incumbent upon me to go out and do projects. And really that’s what we look for is like people who, even if we didn’t hire them, they were still continuing on their journey and they’re still making things and being productive and like getting on set. I think that’s really important. Yeah. And so like, you know, I was asking you about how you keep track of him. I mean, that’s why we created Shoots.Video so that we can put everyone on there. We can have a list of them in recommendations are super important to that ecosystem is to be able to give people a chance to give referrals. And it’s just so much easier for us to, to remember when it’s right there on the website and we can just sort of type in what city, what job description and all that stuff. So it’s it’s a tough job without sort of a central, a centralized database of that.

Anita Casalina:

A lot of you guys you’re, you’re in California also, right. Is everybody here? And I know you’re not, you’re Richard you’re in Vegas, but California has this AB5 law, which I don’t know if any of you are coming up against that. But that’s, you know, hiring freelancers has become an issue. Totally. Yeah. So I’m actually making commercials tomorrow for a woman who’s running for the state Senate against AB5 and she’s a Democrat. So it’s very interesting. I know it’s very interesting, but yeah, it’s, it’s just a real nightmare and a lot of people are ignoring it. A lot of people aren’t thinking about it at all. I have a great big agreement that I had freelancers sign and it seems moot at some point now it’s like, well, why bother? But, so I had worked, this company had worked with a big pool of freelancers for years and it, you know, it, I don’t want to ruin those relationships because of some bad legislation. So how has anybody else dealing with it or do you have to, it sounds like most people were hiring full time.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. So just so people who aren’t in don’t understand what AB5 is basically, it’s saying that like you can’t, it was brought about because of gig economy type stuff, especially, and because they were trying to legislate Lyft and Uber, essentially, we, in my opinion, got sort of screwed in our industry because now we need to, we have to have people as employees, as, as temporary employees, we can’t just hire that, just give them 300 bucks and tell them to show up for the day and do the thing, and then just deal with it like 10 99, like we used to. So it’s, it’s a much different thing. And I would say that each company is finding a way to deal with it with their level of comfort of complying. And I think that’s, that’s how a lot of things sort of happen in this industry. I know that how that, how that has gone with like the drones and, and being able to fly and going out there and having a license and all that stuff, because we knew that the government didn’t know what they were talking about for a long time and still sort of don’t. And so this feels like that. And I’ve been, we’ve been told by tax professionals, like some of them are like ass, shine it on. Who cares? They’re not, they don’t know what they’re doing. And then others are like, ah, you need to worry about that. So anyway,

Richard DePaso:

Just might be helpful for people that are watching to also know the threshold when that kicks in, because there is like a, you can hire somebody so many times I believe is the way the law works. Isn’t it?

Anita Casalina:

I think that the threshold it’s a monetary threshold and it’s pretty low. So what we’ve been doing is onboarding people onto payroll for a short period of time. But also the attorney that I’ve spoke with recently, who’s an employment attorney who I actually think is quite intelligent, said it has to do with the level of risk. You feel like you’re going to experience from these people that you’re hiring. If, if you have good relationships with them, they probably are not going to go to the EDD and report you for any reason. If you’re paying them, everybody, people want to work, especially in this environment right now it’s difficult to get work. So most likely the level of risk is low.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. I mean, as the employers, we want to make it easy for them to come and work for this for us. And hopefully they want to make it easy for us to hire them. And so that’s sort of the dance. Richard?

Richard DePaso:

I would I was just going to pick up on a point that Anita made that what we’re finding out here is that right now it’s difficult to hire anybody for any kind of a short term project from Nevada, because they’re all receiving unemployment and they’re receiving about a thousand dollars a week. And if you offer them a day’s work and it’s going to interfere with their unemployment, they’re not going to do that. Yeah. It’s a,

Justin McAleece: It’s a weird time.

Anita Casalina:

It’s just, it’s so bizarre. Isn’t it? It’s like when people used to be on food stamps or they would make more money, you know, being, being unemployed than it’s just a bad system.

Anita Casalina:
I just brought that up because I, I don’t know how many people have to deal with it, but yes,

Justin McAleece:

It’s quite the hassle and it’s not fun. And it’s, it’s definitely all the more reason to have people you trust and have people that are like, sort of, like you said, a tight knit group and in your inner circle to be able to to go to and know that you guys can work together to get past any of those government red tape sort of situations. W what online resources, websites do you guys use when you’re reaching out to find new people, if you can’t just get it from word of mouth, anyone

Anita Casalina:

Do you have to re we have the Northern California real directory, R E E L directory. And I’ve used that for many years and still, still do you know, look through and see what kind of skills people have listed. And and then I get a sense of them. I’m a little bit also like Torrey who goes to the colleges, but, and any listings that they have of people, but, but the real directory has been a really great resource for us in Northern California.

Justin McAleece:
Nice. yeah. Daniel where you guys explain to me sort of what you guys do at lemon light?

Daniel Marlow:
In terms of that, and in terms of what, where do we look for talent?

Justin McAleece:
Yeah. Finding new people in places that you haven’t expanded to sort of thing.

Daniel Marlow:

Yeah. I mean, we still use, you know, Mandy and staff may open some of the tried and true sites. And then as well as, you know, referrals in certain areas. And I know that even the team has some luck doing iron with social media. Interesting. depending on how remote, you know, maybe the location is, you know, we operate all over the U S and then a couple other international countries. So, you know, I would say, you know, for anyone that is applying and looking for work you know, and say again, like Mandy and a lot of the tried and true sites, I think still do work we’re on those still. And then, yeah, just exploring, just kind of networking and any other social media outlets that might have a page or something dedicated to that area.

Justin McAleece:

What’s something that really catches your eye about someone say on Mandy or somewhere else, what do you.

Daniel Marlow:

To Sonia’s point earlier, I think, you know your demo reel, depending on the role, you know, it does depend on the role, but for a lot of people in production to do have a demo reel or something like that attached to whatever they do, I think that’s always valuable to lead with, you know, leading with a strong demo, real resume. I think in production, we have such a luxury of actually being able to show people what we can do versus simply telling them so anyone that does have the ability to kind of show off what they can do. Yeah. I mean, that, that always stands out first and foremost, you know, it’s kind of like the old saying, you know, show me, don’t tell me, and when we took off their work, it, it really connects all the dots really quickly.

Justin McAleece:
Yeah, absolutely. Anyone else?

Richard DePaso:

Well I could mention some of what we’ve done in the past. We haven’t done it for a while, but we found it particularly effective. We were very active in video groups in New York. And when we came out here, we started a videographers association in Las Vegas, and that brought us in all types of resources. And what it amounts to is that often you’ll get a job and it requires equipment. You don’t have, it requires people who have an expertise that you might not really have at the level that you, that you have in house. And this would give like a, a big talent base of people that we could draw from. Plus we were personally meeting them. So we were able to kind of call through who we wanted to work with and who we might not be too interested in.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, totally. I mean, it’s it’s just important to always be on the lookout. And it seems to me that we’re trying to find any way that we can to find the the diamonds in the rough out there. One question, this is a funny, were you gonna say something Daniel?

Daniel Marlow:

Yeah. I’ll just add, you know, for anyone who’s listening that is really trying to get a job or just reach out to any of these companies out there, you know, our list of role we use Mandy, staff me up, are you drawn or.io Upwork? We even use Craigslist. And then you know, above and beyond that, reach out to the companies. You know, we have LinkedIn these days, you can really just with a little bit of time on Google, kind of start to map out where the company is, who might be working from them, who you could maybe reach out to. So, you know, really just don’t hold back. If there is any kind of one company that you are looking to reach, that you are looking to work for, reach out to them on different, you know, different, you know, whatever forms are available on their website, LinkedIn, maybe social media. And you’d be surprised just showing the initiative can really go a long way. And I’d say that those are even some of the people that we are most receptive to, as well as the people that are, you know, going kind of above and beyond, but just, you know, reach out and you know, yeah,

Justin McAleece:

Totally. It’s, there’s, there’s a weird thing too, is like, we don’t want, we want when someone comes to us and says, Hey, I want to be a grip, or I want to be a camera operator. I want to do DP work for you, whatever it happens to be. It’s like, make it easy on us to like, you don’t ask us to send you a thing so that you can send thing back, just find it, like, don’t, don’t make me do work so that I can give you work. I think that’s a little vague. I know that, but like, as you’re going through the process, whatever that process is, like, make it easy on the potential employer to want to like you and be like, Oh, that guy didn’t create any more homework for me. I hate that stuff. And that sort of happens during the during the actual process of being a freelancer being employed or whatever that is. It’s like, if you, if I have to spend a lot of time giving you invoiced information for you to be able to invoice me, I’m like, I don’t even want to hire this guy again because he just makes it a hassle. So that’s one thing directly to the people out there, like make it easy to be hired and easy to be hired again. Sania, were you going to say something?

Sania Jhankar:

Yeah. I mean, I totally second that and what Daniel said as well. The other thing I would add is that when you’re reaching out to us on this on various mediums, to make sure that you highlight your strengths right up front. So whether it is that your strength is that you’ve been in business, you’ve been on to auntie unsaid for 20 years, if that’s your strength. And if your strength is that I’m a, I’m a DP. And I can, I have my own equipment. I think for smaller companies, it really makes a big difference when you are, if it’s a really small shoot and you want to hire a DP who has a truck of equipment, or has his own camera or his own lens package, whatever, have you, whatever your strengths are, put it in the first two or three sentence. So I know you’ve got my attention now. Now I want to talk to you because most likely that’s enough for me to start a conversation, a good real, and one or two strengths are good to just start a conversation of any thought. So yeah, I would say, you know, those other just kind of be very communicative. I feel like a lot of the times, especially onset crew, I find them to be not that clear and not that communicative. So I think it’s important to be like, this is who I am. This is what I can do for you. Let me know when you have the next job, that’s it like, I think that’s, that’s what we’re really looking for most of the time.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. I mean, our time is short. We want very specific things out of the people we’re hiring. We’re not asking them to do a hundred different jobs somewhat. Well, we usually want them to do like two things really well and just be good at that. And we want them to be honest about what they’re good at. I mean, that’s the worst thing is trying to hire someone and they’re like, Oh, I totally know that camera, or I know how to do this, or I’ve experienced doing that because the thing is when you get them on set, it’s about a ten second process before you’re like, Nope, that’s not true. You don’t know how to do that thing. Richard, do you have something to say about that?

Richard DePaso:

Yeah. And because when we first started out, we would run into that people we would talk to were very full of themselves and they try to really impress you with what they could do and what they know. So it didn’t take us too long to realize that, okay, if you know this, you say, you know, this camera here it show me what you know about it. Or we’d ask them to go out on a shoot just for maybe a half hour or so with us quality and observer or free piece of kit, pair of hands or whatever. And we’d let them get on the camera while we’re there to make sure nothing could go wrong and we’d let them show us what they need. And to the, in the same direction we would hire people that we’d have them live switching, maybe doing something on wire cast or something like that. And we bring them in the studio and we’d have them show us what they can do and we’d train them if they had some skill sets, but not enough, we train them. And if they weren’t willing to do that on their dime, then we really lost interest in them pretty quickly.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. A hundred percent. I’ve experienced very similar things to that. Torrey. What about what about getting people out there? And they, they can’t quite put up what they say they can put up, it’d be dealt with that very much at all.

Torrey Tayenaka:

We’re pretty careful. And it’s I mean, I went to USC film school for cinematography. So I normally vet a lot of the people. I know that the technology stuff and kind of like what you guys were saying, the questions to ask. But I would say we rarely will bring on like a DP onto a big project for the first time and just hope that it works out right. We’re yeah. Even if they are a seasoned DP unless we’re hiring through like an agency, which we have done for some large projects we would normally have them on either a smaller shoot or being first AC like a director might be shadowing even just to, to see their work work ethic. And like you said, like how presentable they are. We, we don’t want to risk our company’s reputation on just giving someone a shot, you know, to lead a project immediately.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah. I mean, I think it’s fair to say, unless you’re big time, unless you’re a Hollywood name, unless I can go to the theater and see your name in the credits often, then you need to be able to, you know, step down and just like, get to know people on the level that, that shoot requires for that thing. And so, you know, I do DP most of the time I do direct in some of the time, but I’m certainly cool to go out there as a first AC or at work as a gaffer or maybe even as a grip for a day or two to, to make friends with the people and see what they’re all about and see, even if I want to work with them too. I mean, I think it’s important to be able to step outside of your normal role if you’re looking to make a new relationship.

Torrey Tayenaka:

I think kind of going back to what someone else said, like having also just a culture fit our culture at spark house is to be a little bit more run and gun, you know, being really careful with our clients’ budgets. We’re not looking to, you know, spend $20,000 on craft service during the shoot or something like, like some of the agencies want to do. And so, yeah, I would almost say if we had a DP or a director that wasn’t willing to come in and kind of get their hands dirty, it probably wouldn’t be a good fit with our group, even if they were the most talented person for the job.

Anita Casalina:

What Torrey’s talking about regarding culture, I think is really important. It seems like almost every job has its own culture based on who the client is. And I know that we often bring in production managers and DPS based on, you know, who is this client and how’s the interface going to be with this DP? Is this a DP who is going to get along with them? So we kind of look at that and I think what Tanya said too, being able to talk, communicate, communicate clearly. We look for that too. I have a really funny story to tell quickly though, which is that the person who is now my operations manager here at, beyond pigs came in because everybody else was out of town. One time, years, four years ago, I was looking for a production assistant and I was calling around calling around. Finally, somebody said, well, you know, there’s this new guy in town and blah, blah, blah. And I said, okay, the guy, I need somebody to get all the crafty stuff. I need the craft services men. Don’t like to go to the store and do this. He’s probably going to think, Oh no, I just want to work with the technology. This guy said, Oh yeah, where do you want? I can go to whole foods and get everything organic. And I was like, he can, and, and then he called me that day. He goes, okay, here’s what I have. And I’ll get some more stuff. And it turns out he knew cameras. He knew lighting. He’s an it guy. He had all these other skills, but I loved him because he went to the store for me, it’s just one of those things. But, but but yeah, every, every job that we hire for feels like you have to have personalities that are going to mesh, you know?

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It doesn’t mean it’s beneath you to be help out on crop services for the day, if that’s your role on that set. And I, I mean, I think that’s, you know, a David Fincher used to always talk about how or other people would say about David Fincher. He knew more, or as much about every role on set that they did because he’d done a lot of those things. And I think that’s important to being good on set in general is just having idea of what other people go through and having been a PA is important to know what they have to put up with sort of working in the the service industry. They always talk about that, you know, of if you’ve been a waiter or waitress or whatever, you have a little more respect for what they go through. Someone had a question you know, as far as presentability, what for a red flags are you really looking for? Or are there more subtle things? And yeah, Richard was, Richard was saying that, you know, coming dressed in standard tech, black clothes is important. And especially for his industry, it’s like wearing show blacks is, is what they’re going to be doing most of the time. So not having a black shirt is sort of a red flag. Yeah, it is. You were saying, Anita?

Anita Casalina:

Oh, it’s just, you know, I’ve had a couple guys show up, just looking really sloppy. And I, you know, there are times like if you’re out, like literally outside in the field, you can get away with that, but you can’t, I don’t think it’s a good idea in a corporate world. I’m actually going to buy some, some clothes here, you know, get some, get some tee shirts and sweatshirts and, you know, kind of uniform up here at, beyond picks. You know, maybe for the holidays, I don’t know, but I kind of, you know, I just, I want everybody to look really good and presentable to clients. It’s part of, it’s part of what we need to do.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, it’s, it’s important to there’s, there’s sort of like a lower threshold and the upper threshold. And I want people to look presentable, but I also don’t want their shoes to be too pretty. Cause then, you know, I’m like, well, you’re probably not even going to walk over there and do the thing and the dirt that I need you to do right now, which is actually like important to me. So there’s that we had a PA on set up in San Francisco one time and I know this is Vegas, actually. I think anyway, she she had a big phone. These are when the first like fablets came out and this is a really big phone tablet looking thing. And she literally had nowhere to put it. She didn’t have a purse, she didn’t have anything else. It was like, she had to have her phone in one hand and she was a PA. And I’m like, you’re a one handed PA like you have no other ability to, except to use one hand to hold the phone and one hand to do everything else. Like you’re useless to me. I don’t know what to tell you. And that was like weird to her. I didn’t, I didn’t say that obviously, but it was like, cool, I’m not going to hire you again. And that seems like a fairly fixable situation.

Sania Jhankar:

Yeah. I think I would add to that, that I think being presentable just doesn’t mean wearing the right clothes. I think it’s a very basic requirement that you have to wear comfortable clothes, but it’s also really important for PAs, crew members, almost anyone on set, but the director to make themselves unknown. I think it’s really important for people to do their jobs without talking loudly. I think basic things like that sometimes can be a form of presenting yourself and your attitude to your work. And I think that stands out. That’s what makes people fit in situations because don’t make yourself unknown as a crew member is kind of an achievement onset. And if sometimes, you know, you’re getting in actor’s ways or you’re getting in the DPS way, then that’s no good because that’s when you know, time is what we are trying to get those 10 hour, 12 hour days in. Right. So I think that’s, I think if you have to ask the question, what should I wear on a set, maybe start lower up because maybe you need to see a lot of what other people are wearing, what you need to be comfortable with. Like, do you want to wear a Fanny pack to put that phone in or whatever? You know, I think these are the things that if you need to start explaining to them, then maybe they need to train under a few more people before they can get to a position that’s a slightly higher up, I would say.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, I, that’s an excellent point. I mean, really profound is, is when I’m on set as a GP or whatever, oftentimes I’m like there’s 20 people talking. There’s other people having conversations or trying to do their job. It’s like we don’t need any extra stuff happening because we do need to focus on the very specific things and conversations that people have to have. And so I often, you know, there’s a number of departments on set where I like them best when they’re sort of quiet and sort of keep to themselves and just do their thing. Cause you know, that they’re working when you look over and they’re like into it and not having to tell everyone what they’re doing. That’s a great thing. Oftentimes.

Daniel Marlow:

Yeah, I would second that I think set etiquette is, is huge and something that I think is largely overlooked. And I think just comes with years of experience being on set, understanding the different roles, knowing you know, how to listen to what’s going on without saying anything kind of to her point as well.

Daniel Marlow:

You know, and I just know in my experience when I’ve been fortunate enough to work on really high caliber sets you know, seemingly the bigger the budget the client or the set quite literally, I remember I was on one, you could hear a pin drop. I mean, it was the most well oiled orchestra of, you know, people working together pretty much listening to the director. And it was, it was an experience cause there’s so many variations of that and I think you know, we can become blind to it or it’s just not talked about enough. So yeah, I think said that a kid is, is huge. It’s something to really look at it in terms of how you, how you present yourself.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, it’s important to, I think, to sort of be aware enough of what’s happening on set to be able to know that, okay, this one’s a little bit different than the last one I was on or this type of job I’m going to have to be more quiet and just keep this stuff to myself, or I’m going to have to like speak up a little bit more because maybe there’s less people on set to be able to handle the role and I’m sort of taking a couple of roles. I think just being present is, is really key and more than it’s ever been, especially with phones and everything else is like, I don’t want to see you on your phone. And it’s it’s because you are gonna miss out on stuff that you don’t even realize you’re missing out on.

Daniel Marlow:
Yeah. Being present. Exactly. I think that’s the key. You said it there.

Anita Casalina:

Yeah. Being present and really sensing what the energy is on a specific set on a specific crew, you know, you just really have a feeling of that. I actually have a question also about what people are doing regarding COVID because here in Northern California, everybody’s very, very sensitive about social distancing and you know, really staying safe, doing the kinds of sanitizing and that kind of thing too. And, and wearing masks, not having too many people on a set of one time. I actually installed UVC lights onto in both my HVAC systems up in the broadcast studio, also down on our stage. So people can feel maybe a little more protected, but is anybody else running into that? I mean, we’re having some clients wanting to just, you know, not come in and maybe just do something from their home. Can you deliver, you know, a package to her house or whatever, like, you know, like that? Are other people running into that fear?

Richard DePaso:

Well, we’re, we’re running into that. And I can, I can intertwine that with some of the other things that people have said. We tend to do a lot of interaction with the clients on our crews, just because of the nature of the work that we do. So we can’t send somebody out in a grungy t-shirt because they’re not going to get the respect that really is required them for them to be able to do the job, to interact with the client. And yes, we have had people like that and we’ll send a very limited grew, there’ll be masked and we’ve even suggested to some of these people will come with a PTZ camera and we’ll control it from a different room if you want.

Anita Casalina:

That’s what we have on our stage. We have three PTZ cameras and we’re able to control them from a control room and have just one person in that control room. So that’s been helpful.

Justin McAleece:

PTZ standing for pan tilt zoom. It’s a remote operated camera. A small, yeah, it just does that sort of thing. Those are more ubiquitous than ever in live production stuff. Yeah. how much going back a little bit, how much turnover turnover do you guys have maybe in employees or in crew members?

Sania Jhankar:

I mean, I guess it’s, it’s, I cannot answer that with an example. I have a DP that I worked with 15 years ago on a feature phone and I’m still working with him on commercials and everything, whatnot. I have so many crew members and multiple sets that I work with once and never worked with again, because of certain reasons that some of which we’ve already discussed. So I think it’s really hard to say, but there is so much room for someone to make themselves indispensable in the roles by surely the things that we just discussed in terms of being available, being, being effective in terms of communication, if you have to meet an audience should be shot something for Jamison two weeks ago. And it was beaded the whole, you know, socially we did a lot of, we had a lot of compliance that we followed. But one of our PAs who was, was really, we were relying on for a lot of things because it was such a small crew given COVID. She got sick the morning off and she actually not only wrote us a terrible email about how she, you know, she’s feeling some temperature, she doesn’t feel comfortable coming in, but yet as a replacement who has been updated with everything she needs to do. And I think just having someone like that, someone who not only told me what the problem is, but went ahead and fixed it for me to the extent that she could makes her the best PA I’ve worked with. And I’m going to make sure that I work with her again. And I think just being really, I don’t know how to say this, but like just being really aware of like, how do I make myself indispensable and wanted is relatively easier to do when you’re doing one day shoots or two days shoots, you know? So I feel like there are these kinds of qualities that we, that really make for a longterm relationship.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s, that’s one of those things that maybe is unwritten, but we expect, I mean, a lot of ways to the people out there, it’s like, if you were going to call us the morning of, if you’re sick, that’s maybe one thing, whatever. But if you’re going to call us the night before, or the morning of anything like that, like you better have a replacement ready because if you called into a normal job, if you were a bartender or whatever, and you called up the boss and said, Hey, sorry, later, like, that’s not good. They’re not going to like you. And this is just the same as a normal job. You’re going to, we want you to come with, don’t come with problems, come with answers, come with solutions. And that’s definitely one of those situations. You, you need to come to that phone call with a solution, hopefully. And a lot of that too, is just like making friends on set and offset maybe. But having other people in your social group that also can contribute to a set. I mean, I think that’s important. Because a lot of times where, you know, calling up someone and saying like, Hey I need a DP for this or whatever. Do you have any other guys that can come along with you? People that can also do the other jobs underneath you and that’s important to making a crew Richard, you had something?

Richard DePaso:

I think that everybody’s covered it pretty well. I just maybe wanted to clarify that were, most of these people on this panel are in California and you’re in kind of a different environment out here. It’s mostly shows. So you’re with people that are out here for a trade show. A lot of them are in suits. You’re right in the middle of them. And it goes back to just, you’ve got to blend in.

Anita Casalina:

So you were asking about turnover, you know, how, how often? I I’m like Sonia, there are people I’ve worked with for years and years and years. And it’s like, I think you find this in all relationships that, that when you start to feel comfortable with someone like your friends, you know, for example, or, or your spouse or something, you stay with them. And so, like, for example, we were hiring a DP for something this next week, and I know exactly how he works. I know what he’s going to want to do. And it feels really comfortable. And so when somebody has, has shown that they have skills, like, like Sania was talking about, but also you learn a rhythm with them. You don’t, there’s not a lot of turnover with them. But then there’s of course, people who I’ve hired you know, they claim that they, like you were talking earlier, do people make claims about their skillset and they can’t really deliver. I’ve had some of that as well. Just can’t, you know, have them back again. I try to communicate with them and tell them why it’s like, you know, what? You were great with this, but you really needed to have told me about this when it was going wrong, instead of letting it go on and off, you know, we can call cut at any time and fix something. But so it’s because we’re a small company, I think that, that there’s a lot of longevity with, with a lot of, a lot of our freelancers and a lot of full time people as well.

Justin McAleece:

That’s great. And with those full time, those people that you have a long relationships with, if the people make relationships with them, the other people looking to get hired, the freelancers and everything, then you know, there’s a few ways to getting to us, to the people on the panel here to actually be hired. And one of those is getting to the people that they are hiring. So that’s important, you know, you’re going to those, a lot of those people are probably going to class out. So if you have a DP that you’ve been hiring for 15 years, I think all of us have sort of talked about that in one way or another. If they have gaffers and grips or ACS or whatever below them, they’re probably sort of testing out of that as well. They’re becoming DP’s in their own. Right. And they need more people underneath them. And so that’s how to get there. There’s a question like finding a good fit is a very time consuming process. Can you share an example of how you test for that? Anyone have an answer for that, how to establish what a good fit is?

Daniel Marlow:

You know, for us, you know, we were hiring all the time and we have hundreds of freelancers that we, that we kind of looked through. So, you know, I think if, you’re sorry, this is the question just, are you trying to find the right fit or no.

Justin McAleece:
No. Like, how do you gauge that with someone who’s trying to get in with you guys.

Daniel Marlow:

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, it’s, it’s really a commitment to just taking the time to figure out kind of again, who this individual is, what their skill set is what their experiences. And I know this has come up a few times since we’ve been talking in terms of people may be claiming that they can do something that they, that they can’t do. So, you know, I think, you know, there’s that saying in the industry, fake it till you make it, but you know, you, you want to really have respect for your role the role you’re applying for what’s being asked of you. And just be honest with yourself. I think one thing that sometimes people often overlook on set and what’s crews coming together is that your one role could be catastrophic to the rest of the production. If you don’t show up, if you really don’t know how to operate that camera, it’s, you really aren’t proficient in sound recording. So yeah, fake it till you make it, but, you know, I think you need to be honest with yourself and that will allow you to, you know, kind of be a good fit within that crew because you’re, you’re, again, you’re being honest with yourself, you’re being honest with what they’re required, what they’re looking for from you. So just have those hard conversations really, to kind of really get to the bottom of what’s being asked to both parties, don’t leave anything to assumption and you know, hopefully just taking the time to go through it on a little more granular level, you can, you know, find out if it’s, you know, if it’s a good fit and if you guys are really gonna be able to work together and not.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Sorry. real quick you know, I, don’t try to explain to people the first job or something, if you’re on a 10 hour shoot, let’s say it’s a big commercial, it’s a medium sized commercial. It’s a $60,000 shoot. You’re looking at a 600 minutes. So 60,600 minutes, you take one extra minute, five extra 10 minutes. Cause you said you knew how to do something. You didn’t, that’s literally thousands of dollars that are being spent because we’re waiting on you to do your job. And so that it is a big responsibility, Anita?

Anita Casalina:

No, I was just nodding at you cause I agreed with what you said. Yeah, it’s you know it’s a really rarefied industry that we’re in guys, it’s different than a lot of other things. And people just need to realize how, as you say, every minute costs something it’s it’s not like, you know, working on an assembly line or, you know, something that you have a long time to work on, know, bigger project you know, building a bridge or something, but they’d tell you time is money also. So but I think Sania had something to say, didn’t you?

Sania Jhankar:

Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to add to that. I think if you had a good fit also really depends on what role you’re applying for that every role has pretty, pretty unique kind of positions. If you had an editor it’s about delivery, it’s about, again, it’s about kind of how we are communicating, especially in this environment offline, if you’re, if you’re a grip or a gaffer, how are you working with the, with the G&E team, how you working with the DP, like that’s important, almost more important than anything else. If you are a sound person, how quiet you are in terms of like getting a sound and getting yourself out of that, if you are a PA, are you getting everything done? Are you in communication with the producer or director, whoever you know, is in charge of you? So it really depends on like again, back to being like who, what your role is and how you are, how, how, how good you are at being present there and also communicating what is needed. So I think, yeah, I think it’s, and I think one of it generally does come from experience on some things on big sets and seeing really seeing what people have to say. Like I have, I mean, really the best people I’ve worked with are people who have learned from what’s going on without really telling me that they’ve learned this. And that’s why they’re going to do this. If that makes sense.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is funny, you know, it’s a little bit of profiling or whatever you want to call it, but sometimes you meet with someone and you’re like, well, I need this role. And they’re like, well, I’m that? And you look at them and you’re like, I don’t think, yeah,

Richard DePaso:

Out here, what we need more than specialists are generalist. If somebody is going to be operating a camera, they sure as heck better know what an audio mixer does and how to work with one. And the big thing that we look for is that rather than feeling that just showing up and doing a very limited role is enough. We want them to be concerned with the success of the project and to do whatever they can, to be certain that that project is going to work. And I’ll give you a typical example, we’ll go to a show and the person that’s hired to handle the show, not with us, but for the show suddenly doesn’t know what he’s doing or he can’t resolve a problem with us. We have people that know how to help that audio technician with the show. So what our attitude is, will we want, and we’ll do anything to make the project a success for our client. And if we get people that just want to show up and they feel that’s good enough, well, that’s really not a good fit for us. And, you know, I know we may be different than some of what we’re talking about here, but I’m putting it in my perspective.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s important. Most of the roles on set, I typically want someone to be a geek about that thing. Like I want them to go home at night and know stuff that I don’t and stay a little bit current with it and be able to come and be like, Oh, did you try this thing that I read about three weeks ago on a forum? Like that can be, that can come crucial at times. And you can tell when you’re like, Oh, you don’t really give a damn about this job. You’re just trying to get paid and be here and you like movies and whatever. So I mean, and, and that, that goes, you know, like if this is what you’re doing for your life, if this is important to you, then like you got about it, learn about it, have way more knowledge than you think will come into play on set that day, because eventually it will. And us, I think if I can speak for all of us, it’s like, we noticed that. Like, when you have an MVP moment and you do something like that really saves the day or really was just like perfect anticipation wise that moment, like we Remember that stuff and we will bring you back for roles that are even a little bit different than that was. I think it’s important. Cool. We are at five o’clock. Any parting statements? What does anyone else who I don’t know, we’ve talked about a lot of different things of how to get jobs. We we’ve said I’m going to your website talking to you guys specifically. What’s what a dress like, what’s a present yourself, like how to be on set and all that. Any, any parting stuff, Torrey, you haven’t, you haven’t talked in a bit. What do you got to say, man?

Torrey Tayenaka:

I think, like I said, it kind of goes the, at least for us. And I’ve told multiple people that we no longer work with that. You know, talent is one thing, but, you know, we all love making videos and so we want to work with people that makes that more fun. So I I’ve told almost every level, like, even if you’re good, if we don’t enjoy working with you, you’re not gonna come back on set. And so yeah, the more I guess, enjoyable, you can make the set that you’re, you’re on. I think that’ll, you’re, you’re going to stand out, even if you’re just a, a PA that’s starting. If everyone remembers you and loves that they’re going to give you opportunities. We actually just hired full time. A PA that came out on two shoots and just was above and beyond. And we’re like, this guy can rock it. Right. And he has potential to be a producer. So we basically brought him in as a junior producer to start running some of those shows and he wasn’t even asking for a job. Like we reached out to him and say, Hey, we have this need. And we remembered how awesome you were on the set. Would you be interested in coming out? So yeah, definitely just kind of like above and beyond and make sure everyone likes you.

Anita Casalina:

Attitude is huge. Attitude is absolutely huge. And we actually have a client coming back on Monday down to our stage who changed the date of their shoe so that they could work with RPA and stage manager because they liked him so much had such a he’s he’s so enthusiastic. And you know, I think one other thing I would add to all of this though, is being willing to be on a team. Think about the people around you have each other’s backs, make sure you have, have the backs of the people around you. Somebody needs something that maybe isn’t in your job description, but you, you know, needs to be done, help them out, go take care of it. You know, I mean, it’s been, it’s been really nice to see people going above and beyond what they think they’re supposed to be doing in order to help the whole project succeed for the client, you know, by helping their fellow teammates. So I think that’s a really big thing too.

Justin McAleece:

Yeah, absolutely. To speak to what Torrey was saying. It’s like, I think most of us at one point or another, wanted to make fun movies with our and wanted to have a good time doing it. And we still want to do that just because we want a company just because where it’s a big shoot, it’s a whatever, like, that’s still a part of what we want out of this job, at least I do.

Daniel Marlow:

I think, you know, I think a lot of the basics just apply across the board and everything that everyone said here, you know, Richard just mentioning, you know, just, just being on time, you know, if you’re on time, you’re late and if you’re early, you’re on time. You know, so many of these fundamental things I think are taken for granted really can collectively make the difference. You know I remember working with this one, DP who had an agent and all I worked on huge stuff and everything was super impressive. And you know, you have to only talk to the agent to talk about rates and everything like that. And this is the, when we worked with him, he was the most hard working guy I’ve ever met every day. He showed up 20 minutes, you know, early to set with his coffee, wide-eyed ready to go. And he, you know, had quote unquote made it and had the agents fighting for him and can kind of be in that position to do whatever. And that’s, I think what sometimes people think, but I think that you find that you know, all of the basics are synonymous with, you know, some of the people that are the most successful in this industry and that there isn’t really any one thing that’s above them. And then you find out that those basics are, are really instrumental and their success ultimately.

Justin McAleece:
Lebron still works on his dribbling. I mean, you know what I mean? That’s what it comes down to.

Sania Jhankar:

One of the things that we didn’t really touch upon is, again like that, I would love to add love to talk about like, how people think about is like, there’s a lot of communication that happens around rates, especially when you’re working with new people. So I think it’s important for it’s important that if you actually think you are worth a certain amount that might have not been offered to you or might have not been on that particular project, it’s important to say it. And it’s important to say it professionally. I feel like a lot of the times people don’t think longterm and, you know, projects are different that are, that are budgets that are done in 10,000 videos. We’ve all shot in that like 10 times higher than that. So it’s really important to be a base professional when you’re dealing with a professional agency or a production company so that you can, you can ask them for a higher rate, but you can also understand if, you know, it’s a different type of project and back out on it, more professionally, as opposed to, I’ve seen people just be outright rude about, that’s not my rate, sorry. And that’s not an email you should send to any producer ever because they’re not going to hire you and they do have a better rate. So it’s things like that, that I think, again, it goes back to attitude and communication, but those would be the two things that I would really I’m looking for in, you know, when working with people.

Justin McAleece:

Yes, we are sort of over our time. So unless Richard, you wanted to chime in, I think we got a lot. Yeah. Okay. So this has been a crew talk with Shoots.Video to Daniel, Sania, Richard, Anita and Torrey. Thank you so much for being on the call today. I think we’ve got a lot of great information about, you know, what it is to get hired and why you get hired and why you stay on and why you get more jobs and what we’re really looking for and how we find you importantly, and Shoots.Video sponsors that, and that’s our site to enable that to happen in a lot of great ways with referrals and everything else. So I very much appreciate it. Thanks guys. It’s really nice to meet all of you.

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