We chat with a handful of successful freelancers and discuss what it takes to become a successful freelancer in the video and film industry.
Panel:
Transcript from Crew Talk
Sarah Marince:
Hello, everyone, happy Wednesday. And welcome to crew talk brought to you by shoots.video. I’m your host tonight Sarah Marince. And I’ve missed you guys, cuz I’ve been out for a few weeks. I got married two weekends ago and then it was Thanksgiving and all that fun stuff, but the wedding was great, but I’m very glad to be back with all of you today. We’re gonna be talking about the world of freelancing tonight and we have an amazing panel of guests here and we’ll ask all the questions, but I just wanted to remind you guys, if you have a question during this crew talk, feel free to drop it into the Q&A box. And I will definitely get to it. So yeah, the Q and a box for any questions you have, and I guess we will just get started right into it. I’m gonna go around and introduce my panel as how I see them. Just kinda say who you are, where you are and just like a little bit about what you do for work. So Paul, I will start with you.
Paul Schmutzler:
Hey everybody. I’m Paul Schmutzler. I’m in Knoxville, Tennessee and I am the in-house media producer for Cirrus Aircraft.
Sarah Marince:
Awesome. Well welcome. Thanks for being here. And Leslie.
Leslie Wong:
Hi, I’m Leslie Wong. I am a freelance producer and I I’m actually in San Francisco, but I work LA and San Francisco and actually internationally. But I’ve been freelancing as a producer for over 15 years now. And so I have a little bit of experience. Just a little.
Sarah Marince:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here next. I have Alana.
Alana Mediavilla:
Hi, I’m Alana and I just moved this year to Puerto Rico. So I am living in Puerto Rico and I have been, I’ve owned my company, my freelance company for nine years, but same Paul. We were talking before the shoot. I did everything, so I had my 5D and I shot it and I closed the contracts and I wrote the scripts and I drew the storyboards and I shot everything and I color graded everything. And then after four years of doing that of just being a freelancer I got a job at Google and I was an in-house video specialist. And then I became a video producer at Google, built studios, traveled the world. It was such an amazing job with such a fun team. And then this year I have gone back to just I’ve. I quit Google and now I am working with my company now. So my company is no longer just, just, it still feels like freelance plus, but I work with a team in house team and group of freelancers to run my client’s projects.
Sarah Marince:
Very cool. Thanks for being here and congrats on the move <laugh> thank you. Next we have. And I’m sorry if I mispronounce your name. I know you just told me Towela.
Towela McMahon:
Yeah, you got it. Yeah. Okay, perfect. So pretty <laugh> thank you. Hi everyone. I’m Towela, I’m based in the bay area as well in Albany, which is right next to Berkeley. I’m the in house, what they call project manager for marketing in the marketing world. It’s a project manager rather than a producer, but I work with their special events hybrid events. So both in-person engagements and the obviously get rolled into a virtual. We do a lot of everything on screen basically is what I like to own in some of the signage as well. Been doing that only the last five months, five or six months before that I was freelancing and love and it, and I’m missing the freedom now. <Laugh> that? I’m back in the house. Yeah. And that’s a little about me.
Sarah Marince:
Wonderful. Well, we are glad you are here. So I’m gonna jump into my questions that I have here. And Leslie, I’m gonna throw the first one to you. How did you get started in the industry? Like what were your first steps?
Leslie Wong:
Well, you know, I was one of those I, one of those college kids who had no idea what she wanted to be, I mean, I’m Asian, so everyone thought I wanted to be a doctor, but that was so not true. <Laugh> I tried bio and it didn’t happen. Sorry, mom. But I moved to LA with the idea that I wanted to work in production and I just didn’t, I didn’t, I had no idea how to get into production. I just knew I had to be in LA. So I moved to LA and I started reaching out to anybody I knew in LA like anybody who was a waiter or even somebody who worked as you know, I had friends that were working as teachers. I mean like anything, like I was like, do you know anybody? Do you know anybody?
Leslie Wong:
And I just kind of stumbled into it. Like I got lucky, I met one person who I, to me, to another person who introduced me to another person. And I actually started out working in PR. And when I was there in PR I met other people in the industry and I just started volunteering myself. People were asking like, oh, do you want a PA for a day? They don’t pay. But you know, and I was like, yes, absolutely. So I started out doing that, just like PAing wherever I could. And, and then, you know, I even took acting classes and I met other actors and they wanted to do production. So that’s how I got into it. I met with actors and I decided, Hey, I wanna produce this for you. Even though I had no idea what I was doing, I still did it anyway. I, I, I taught myself. And so that’s how it happened, you know, I just, just, just, just using the rule of saying yes to everything is kind of how I started.
Sarah Marince:
So like networking and yeah, like you just said yes to everything and every opportunity. Yeah.
Leslie Wong:
Even like student films, you know, even if they weren’t paying, I was like, yeah, absolutely. I just wanted the experience. And I met everybody on set. I tried to make contacts where I went, even if it was like the grip or the, you know, the gaffer, I was like willing to, to sit down and talk to them and just ask them, Hey, what do you do? I don’t understand what this is, you know, or what is that equipment? So that’s kind of how I started.
Sarah Marince:
Did you spend a certain amount of years just kind of saying yes. And working for free before you started working for pay
Leslie Wong:
<Laugh>? Yeah. I mean, when I lived in LA for probably five years working five different jobs. Like if I wasn’t volunteering my work, I was like working in a, in a, you know, in a retail store. And then I was also like temp working at, like Fox studios. And I attempt to work at universal music, like anything that would, you know, pay my bills, but also get me the experience. That’s what I was doing. So, you know, I had a lot of credit debt. I say that right now, <laugh> getting there, but it did take me a little while. And like, I got lucky because I ended up meeting a few producers that were just, they just liked working with me, you know? And so I just volunteered for all of their jobs and eventually it just moved into like, from PR, you know, from PA to like second ad to first ad. And then I became a producer myself. So, I mean, you know, it takes years for sure. You, you definitely have to do the grind. And like, I meet a lot of P PAs now that feel like, oh, well I only PA for a couple months and I’m ready to move up. And I’m like, well, you know, there’s still so much more to learn as a production assistant. So, you know, I encourage all production assistants to, to just keep saying yes and do as much work as possible. That’s
Sarah Marince:
Great advice, Paul, what about you? What would be your first steps getting into the industry?
Paul Schmutzler:
Yeah, so I was a fortunate person who right away, as soon as I left high school, went straight to college, knew exactly what I wanted to do. I did a four year degree in cinema video production and never looked back. I loved photography as soon as I started learning it in that freshman year. And then when I got out of college, I got a job with a small agency in Atlanta, working as the in-house media team for Coca-Cola as in their headquarters in Atlanta. And so I was exposed to this incredible, high powered, super expensive agency type world of work that was swimming around me all the time. And I was over on the fringes kind of just observing. And I was essentially project coordinator, project manager. I learned so much there working with some guys that were incredibly talented behind the camera.
Paul Schmutzler:
Some ladies had tons of experience with editing, and then we had a whole duplication replication system there as well, which at that time was VHS and super VHS. And then we got into DVDs. And then from there I left and got a job somehow because I knew somebody who really liked me as a producer. And I had no business being a producer on this, the staff, but I went from corporate big, giant corporation, straight up here to Tennessee, where I am now and started working in government. And I was working for a DOE facility here. In fact, it’s one of the facilities that worked on the Manhattan pro for you history bucks out there during world war II. So I was working there as a producer for two years and I was sat down in front of final cut pro for the first time and said, Hey, we got this new software in from some new budget money this year.
Paul Schmutzler:
Can you learn how to use it and hand me this book? That’s this thick how to use final cup pro <laugh>. So, so I learned final cut pro became the, for a little while, the only final cut pro editor, they had been all avid before. So then there was a hybrid. We were using both systems for for a long time after that. And then from there I freely started my own company and ended up in a weird position where I got into doing journalism for the industry. So I was writing for streaming media magazine, post magazine technology for worship, and it’s, it was all trade focused, you know, reviews and industry analyses and white papers, anything that had to do with video production or anything kind of, even on the, the fringes there. I was writing about it, interviewing, doing video reviews, all kinds of fun stuff.
Paul Schmutzler:
So I really got well connected in the industry on the hardware and software side and the manufacturer and vendor side. And then I was freelancing on the side a little bit here and there, but I mostly stayed busy doing that journalism type stuff. And the mean time I was working for another company who was mainly a printing and design company, but they were getting more and more requests to their business partners or business clients for video production. And so they brought me in as a person who already knew the video and could provide that as needed. And they taught me everything about print and design, which a field that I had no experience in again, and had no desire to learn anything about, but I had to cuz it was a job and I was looking for a full-time position again. So I learned a whole different industry through that.
Paul Schmutzler:
And I was there for almost 10 years, again, freelancing on the side while also working for their in-house corporate producer as a, a one-man band. And then just this spring I got hired at sir aircraft here in Knoxville, Tennessee. They are a roughly 2000 employee company based in Duluth, Minnesota, but their marketing communications and their delivery and training center is all down here in Knoxville. So we stay busy producing gobs and of training content for operating our aircraft. But we also produce all of the in-house. I mean, all of the social media and any promotional type marketing work all comes from a seven person team right now with supplementing with a whole lot of freelancers, primarily in the writing and the 3d animation space. But we also use some still photography and occasionally we’ll hire a small crew for some of our really large productions where we need that extra push for capabilities and capacity. So that’s where I am right now.
Sarah Marince:
Nice. You’ve had a fun journey to get there, but it’s, it’s cool. You, you knew from the beginning what you wanted to do, you, you can, so it’s fun. You can come from either side, like you have no idea or you really know and you end, you still end up, you know, doing what you love, which is great. Right. so I’m gonna ask my next question. And Leslie, you kind of touched on this tips on getting started in the industry. And I know, like you said, saying yes to everything and networking, but are there any key tips or like pieces of advice that any of you have received or experienced that you’re like, anyone you’ve gotta do this, like you have to do this. If you wanna make it, anyone can jump in.
Towela McMahon:
I’ll jump in. And in early I’d just say, I, I think one thing that really helped me particularly with freelance was being like diverse. So not specializing, particularly in film, video roles too much. I think I have another leg in edit in the editing world. So I edit a lot and I find that that really helps. And it builds my clientele often. A lot of my old employers will still hire me for edits today. So just having that so I can produce on one side and then having edit and then I have onset experience as well. Just means that, you know, there’s, there’s nothing I won’t say no to because I, I know it all mostly <laugh> yeah. I just encourage
Alana Mediavilla:
People
Sarah Marince:
And they know that you count on you for, you know, more than one thing, which is great. Exactly. Yeah. Alana, what about
Alana Mediavilla:
You? I was excited about the other question. Well, you can, if
Sarah Marince:
You have any add, you can add to that
Alana Mediavilla:
For sure. Oh, OK. OK. I, in terms of, in terms of just something that you have to do, Sarah, like you asked you have to be cool to work with because like, you really need to keep a level ahead. You really need to leave your ego at the door. It is when you’re in production. It’s like, for me it’s I was not a veteran. I, I’m not a veteran. I haven’t been in the army, but the, some of my favorite people to work with were veterans because they like, knew like, they’re like, no, no, no. And I get it because they were, and I got to work with them and I got to see how they think. And I feel like production is a lot, like it you’re in a project you’re in a battle, you know, like you cannot lose, you need to make sure that you have all the batteries and that the cameras are there and that the lenses, nobody like loses anything.
Alana Mediavilla:
Everything gets picked out. Then again, absolutely not the same thing as war, but it’s definitely like heist to aches and it it’s a short amount of time. So when you add to that, the human like drama, it, it gets really hard. And I have found that I just like to have a good time on set. I like to be able to keep the peace, keep the energies flowing well. And, and that’s part of the reason why I think that people hire me is literally just energy. And I actually hire people because of their energies too. So I mean, obviously, and if they’re good, but I have now I’m old enough and have worked long enough where I can kind of find those people. So I would say you have to be a good, a good teammate, you know, a good crew mate, you are starting out. And frankly, until you’re always, if you can, if you can do it,
Leslie Wong:
I wanna, I wanna say Alana, you’re straight up. Right? Like, it’s, it’s so important to check that ego at the door. I’ve had so many, like so many people that bring an ego to the set and you’re like, why would I ever wanna work with that person again? Like, you know, it’s so important and like, to be proactive, you know, like, yeah. Like, you know, talk to who you’re working with, get to know people like, be, be open to like being the cool person on set. Like I wanna work with my friends, like at the end of the day, like, that’s why we got into this business. Right. We wanna work with people we like, and that we wanna spend time with. I mean, like when I met, when I was an acting class, I met so many other actors and I hire them because I liked working with them.
Leslie Wong:
You know, like I didn’t wanna work with like the big diva, you know, who wants, you know, who wants to deal with that? Like, there’s enough, there’s enough drama on set already, like why I bring it in into your conversation. So I totally agree. And, and I think like and I think what toll is saying is like, yeah, like having other skill sets is super important too, because like, I mean, I actually, I’m also a graphic designer and I’m also an illustrator. So like, you know, having those avenues to meet other people in the industry, like, you know, like if some, if I’ve joined so many Facebook groups of like other production companies and other producers, and I’m like, when somebody’s like, oh, I need a logo for my, for my new, my new company or, oh, I need a poster made for my movie. Like, I’m the first person to be like, oh, well, what do you need? Like, I can help you. Like, even if I’m not the designer, I can at least introduce them to the right designer. Right. Like, but like keeping those avenues open, like every, I mean, I think the whole creative world, if we’re all connected, you know, we, we can all connect with each other and make things happen, like make project happen.
Sarah Marince:
Absolutely. thank you guys for those, the tips and advice and yeah. It always, you know, helps to be cool and chill on set. <Laugh> okay. We have a question from Ken in our Q and a box. Hey Ken, thanks for being here. How do you find freelancers to join you on projects? I’m a cinema and would love to get contact info for each panelist and potentially pitch my skills. So side note, before anyone answers, I will have all the panelists put all of their info, Instagram websites, whatever into the chat box at the end. But to answer the question, anyone can take the floor.
Alana Mediavilla:
I wanna go first because I excited about that question. So I started a a discord. I have a discord server because I worked at Google as a video producer and we had access to everybody. Like we could just ping each other at a moment’s notice. And I loved it because if I had a, to coordinate it, like our network of video producers around the world was so connected, virtually like so tight virtually that even though they were in London or New York or Florida or Seattle or LA, and I was in the bay area, but there were a bunch of different offices in the bay area. Like there’s from San Francisco. In fact, I’m, I’m saying from San Francisco, there’s probably from higher, but like, there’s a bunch of different offices that I worked with people with. And so I was like, when I leave Google, I’m gonna be screwed, so I’m gonna need to create like my own mini, like roster of people that I can connect with immediately that isn’t just like a Facebook group that has like 10,000 people, like, have it be the, the, the, the 20 that are mine, you know, like my, my very specific team.
Alana Mediavilla:
And so I started a discord server. So you I’ll definitely point the link to that because we also just have conversations about the industry the other day like the other day, like a couple months ago I got on the voice chat and I just wanted to go over, like, how much should I bill a client? That’s asking for X, Y, Z with the three, three freelancers that I would’ve hired, like with their companies. So we were, and I invited anybody to join the voice channel because it’s like, you know what, just listen, let’s see how much we’re billing, how we’re working together, how we’re putting this proposal together. So really building that community of people that you wanna be in contact with and staying in contact with that international community, cuz today more and more shoots and everything are international. So just because a producer might be in like Tennessee doesn’t mean you wanna connect with them because they might, might need somebody where you are at.
Alana Mediavilla:
And so, you know, Paul might be, he might know that I’m in Puerto Rico and he might be like, Hey, I need somebody in Puerto Rico, you know? And he is in, I’m sorry, are you in Tennessee? Did I, did I dump that in? I think you said. Yeah. Yes, Tennessee. Anyway. So I would say it’s happened to an international community and then create your own WhatsApp groups, your own discourse servers, but like collect your favorites. And then that way, if you need like editor at a moment’s notice, you can have like a little, I have a, I have a, a channel that’s a job post channel and me, or anybody can post jobs on there, but then we’ve, you know, our friends have been, it has been slowly growing, but super organically. So even though it doesn’t and have that many people, it has like the right people. So build that and be a part of those small, tight communities of active freelancers. Great. Does anybody wanna
Leslie Wong:
Jump into that? Yeah. I wanna say that social media, as much as we love and hate it it’s actually really helpful for, for finding like freelancers and I, and I’ll say even for me, like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve joined a lot of different producer groups, like Facebook groups and like I’ve found a lot of my freelancers that way. And the other thing is linked in like stay relevant by like updating your stuff, because I feel like I’ll run into like, I’ll look on LinkedIn and I’ll like Google or I’ll search for cinematographers and I’ll get like, like 5,000 of them, but I’ll actually go through a, a large number of them and look at their websites. And, and I will say more often than not, I’ll pass over a website that I feel is like not updated or they’re real is like six or seven years too old. So I think that it’s really important. Like if you’re looking for, you know, looking to connect and, and really stay relevant is to continue to update your stuff. And also just like try to connect with people on Facebook groups, social media, Instagram, like if you like another cinematographer, like, like, you know, like add them to your Instagram and like follow them and DM them and be like, Hey, you know, I’m, I’m also a cinematographer and I love your stuff, you know, just stay constantly connected to other people in your industry.
Sarah Marince:
Cool. I’m gonna jump into my next question and, and dwell, I’m gonna throw it to you. Do you prefer to work as a freelancer or working for an employer?
Towela McMahon:
Oh, that’s great question. <Laugh> I actually prefer freelancing. But you know, it, I, right now I have a couple of young kids and there’s all the, the wonderful benefits from being in house, like health benefits and whatnot. But I, I like the freedom of freelancing and ultimately I think I, the other thing is I, I never stop even when I’m in house or working with someone I’m still a freelancer, like for me, that doesn’t go away cuz I’m always trying to pick up stuff on the side or like, like you know, Leslie shared you know, just keeping those networks, going, keeping those relationships and building on them and letting people know they can reach out. I, I also have a problem saying no, which we won’t go into that. So but yeah, but the, but yeah, I, I think I prefer the freelance, the freedom and then the ability to sort of direct your own project and, and bring your, your creative juices full force. And for me, I think that it also cuts out the middle man when I’m, when I’m the freelancer mm-hmm <affirmative>
Sarah Marince:
Does anyone here have an opposing view on it?
Paul Schmutzler:
<Laugh> yeah. Well, I mean, here’s the, the one, like I’ve basically only been a full time employee in places for the most part, the, but as toll I mentioned, you know, I’ve always done at least some freelancing on the side as well, but I am definitely more, my personality is more security. Like I want the security of the employer and you know, the health insurance and all that kind of stuff is just, I don’t have to worry about that. I don’t have to think about it. And it’s nice to have the extra side income from the freelancing. My situation also is well not unique, but my situation is I’m the sole breadwinner for our family of four. So, you know, that that would make it a lot more challenging to do freelance and rely on that because as you guys know, you know, depending on where you live, but I can tell you for Knoxville, it’s very much a boom bust type of freelance world.
Paul Schmutzler:
So we have a wonderful TV production culture here, and there’s a huge business around that, but there’s been years in the past where scripts hasn’t had good years and TV’s just not been making money. So those freelancers are the first ones to get cut. So yeah, I’m, I’m definitely more preferred to be a, a full time, let the company kind of take care of me. And fortunately I’ve never been, you know, really burned by a company, never had a layoff or anything like that to where I say, well, I mean, granted, there’s no security in anything but been pretty secure where I’ve been,
Alana Mediavilla:
Then I’ll, I’ll, I’ll jump in just to pepper it with a ton of if different viewpoints, because I think that then we, we encompass all three. I prefer to freelance because the, I have no ceiling. I can continue to make more money and, and land better projects and bigger projects. And I, I you’re totally right. Paul, you don’t have the security, you don’t, but you have that freedom that you were talking about to, of like really deciding, like, what projects are you going to take? I am the sole breadwinner of, for a family of five. So I beat you, Paul. I beat you. <Laugh> I have three kids. I have a 13 year old a six year old and a two year old. And I am the sole breadwinner. My husband’s the stay at home husband. And you know, I have to make a lot of money.
Alana Mediavilla:
I was living in California and I had the three kids I was living in San Jose. My rent was ridiculous and you know, it was, but honestly, I’m happy that I had that as a, as I’m happy that my cost of living was so high because I kind of just forced me to have to take, say no to the, to the smaller paying things and really only for the bigger fish and because that’s all I could do to survive. So I learned how to do that pretty well because I was, I very well networked. I’m a huge believer that you are the average of the five people that you hang out with the most. So you need to make sure that you’re always hanging out with people that are succeeding, that are hustling and, and the bay area. I was very well connected to the other kind of freelancer dudes that were also, and I would talk to them about like how, what contracts they use.
Alana Mediavilla:
So it helped me really build a business mind around around my freelancing. So I, I I’ve enjoyed being able to then create my own St and hire my own teams freelancing. So, but that being said, the pressure, sometimes you can’t sleep as the, so breadwinner of your family, because when your client suddenly tells you that it’s a net 45 term, and yeah, it’s a big fish, but you’re not gonna get paid for a month and a half. What are you gonna do? <Laugh> so, yes, there are definitely like moments where it’s like, and that’s where a little project comes in. And then, you know, you work on that one and then that, that, you know, it’s great. Like there’s ways of handling that, but, you know, it’s definitely a lot more stress. So if you’re already as, so yes. So yes, definitely. You’re right, Paul, it’s a lot more stress and not as much security, but I like
Leslie Wong:
The, I wanna say, I wanna say it’s not a competition. I’m also the, so bread winner of five And I, and my kids are, my kids are two and a half and six months. So I’ve been breastfeeding and supporting this family. Yes.
Alana Mediavilla:
Oh my God. So we all know what you’re going through.
Leslie Wong:
You’re but I will. I agree. I, I agree with all of you actually, I think like having a full time job and having security and everything like that is, is, is amazing. Like, I wish, like I had a full time job when I was pregnant and that I got money for maternity leave. Like I, I had to save so much money for maternity leave because I wasn’t getting paid for maternity leave. I had to take six months off and just support myself off savings, you know? So I wanna say, and I also wanna say that like this, the stress of, of not knowing when your next paycheck is, is, is very stressful, like knowing that you’re supporting your family, but, you know, when is the next project coming in? When, when, when am I gonna get paid? When am I gonna be able to afford to, you know, buy food for my kids?
Leslie Wong:
Like, yeah, that is super stressful. But I will say that as a mother, I actually really enjoy freelancing because I am to spend the time with my children that, that most people can’t right. Like, and I can also choose the projects that I wanna do. And I think that’s really important too. Like so I’ve kind of like, in all the years of freelancing, I’ve been able to find clients that are almost like full time where they’re constantly coming back to me over and over and over again. So there is a little bit of that security knowing that, like, I have some specific clients that are always gonna call me when they have projects going on. And then I have the ability to find other clients that are awesome and like, you know, wanna work with me. And, and then I get to like, you know, nurture that relationship and hopefully continue to work with them for years and years and years.
Leslie Wong:
But I mean, I will say that every time, time I’m not working, I am thinking like, should I apply for a full-time job? Should I apply for a full-time job? Should I work in house? But then I look at my kids and I look at the freedom that I have that makes me feel like, you know, I think I have to do this for a little while longer, you know, when I can enjoy them being so young and maybe, you know, I don’t know when they’re a little older, maybe I can explore the full-time thing. <Affirmative>
Towela McMahon:
Yeah. A hundred percent. I always say, like, if I wasn’t freelancing, my, my three year old wouldn’t be potty trained. Right. <laugh> like, it’s just <laugh>. That was like a whole thing. So I was grateful that I had something to fall back on, but Alana, you said something I just wanna touch on quickly. And it was about your growth, your, especially as an artist, I feel like I agree with you that in that freelance space, because I’m a more, you know, you’re almost self directing that in terms of growing your artwork. I think freelance is an ideal space, so I’ll just leave it there.
Sarah Marince:
I wanna ask I also freelance I’m on, I’m in voiceover, but it’s, you know, 90% freelance and it can be very stressful when, you know, cuz it’s highs and lows. I mean like, and you ride it when it’s high, but I mean, there are those times when you’re like, am I ever gonna work again? Like, am I ever gonna, is anyone ever gonna call me to voice anything again? So how do you guys deal with like those thoughts and just times when work is slow and you know, I I’m sure you guys have those thoughts too. It’s like, am I ever gonna work on a job again? Which can be very stressful. So how do you guys kind of overcome that
Alana Mediavilla:
For me? I would say it is having a runway. So I do not spend everything that I make. I put money aside and I set up a runway where I know that I can weather a two to three month storm. That’s a hundred percent how, how I operate. And it’s important to be able to know that if, if, if it hits the fan, you have something to kind of hold onto. But I’m also on the Leslie camp that there is going to be a time, hopefully that you have certain clients that are sometimes I feel like, like, like, you know, I, I have certain clients that I’ve worked with for three years. Like one like every month for three years we’ve grown together, you know, he’s seen me like, and there’s and having these long term clients or people that just come in frequently that you can, you know, sometimes when I’m like, I just send an email out to do, I would say also actually, let me, let me, let me condense this down to this.
Alana Mediavilla:
It’s not about the number of people in your network. It’s the quality of the people in your network. You have, let’s say your, your newsletter just has your email newsletter. It just has like 40 people. If all those 40 people are executive producers that work at Amazon at, at Google, at zoom at PayPal. And you’re just like, Hey guys, I have this idea for this doc that I wanna work on. Does anybody wanna, does anybody have a budget for this? You know, like being able to don’t underestimate the power of also reaching out to people personally and just making sure that people know you as a, as a, as a person, because then as you build that network and Leslie, you said it, you have to grind. It takes years. It takes years. I was good at this 10 years ago, but I’ve now have 10 more years of people that I know. You know, it would’ve been impossible to do this when I was like 25, you know, it doesn’t matter how much of a hustler I was cuz now I’m like, now I’m a 35 year old hustler. I’ve been doing it for a long time. So you get those, you get that good network of people. You have that good vibe, you stay in contact with them. You make sure that that you’re right, Leslie, that you, they see your latest staff so that they know you’re alive and then, and have a runway, a financial runway. Very important,
Sarah Marince:
Good advice. Absolutely. Especially on the financial runway part, cuz you just, you never know how things are gonna go. I
Alana Mediavilla:
Know for sure those dry, those dry parts are going to come for. Something is gonna happen in the finance department and that check hasn’t arrived and the finance person changed and you changed banks. And even if it’s definitely coming in and it’s the same client you could it’s it’s only real when the money’s in the bank. Yes.
Towela McMahon:
Amen. It’s like knowing people like Paul for example, right? Like I, I love knowing resource managers. I love knowing people who are hiring all the time. Like those are the people I love to, to keep in my Rolodex. And I’m just gonna go back to what I said before. And it’s diversifying for me, like that’ll tie me that tides me over in those times. If I’m, if all I’m doing is QAing on somebody else’s project or you know, just those different roles that you can pick up here and there that will just hide you over. It might not be the day rate of an editor, but it’ll help with with those dry times.
Leslie Wong:
Yeah. It’s going back to checking that ego at the door. Like don’t feel like you can’t, you know, take a job that might be, you know, not your ideal situation, right? Not your ideal job, but like saying yes to like, you know, a job that might pay you a lot less than you normally do, you know? And that cushion, it really does. I mean like if you weren’t good at math before when you’re freelancing, you are all of a sudden, so good at math and budgeting. You’re like, oh, Hey, I can’t spend that money cuz I need like three months of it. You know? So it’s, it’s really about staying on top of your stuff and hustling.
Sarah Marince:
We have an add-on question from Ken. He said follow on how do I find new clients in the corporate slash agency world? I find that these are great clients with great projects as demand, creativity and passion. I’d like to build my client base with more new new clients.
Paul Schmutzler:
I’ll take that one because I have a great story from about three weeks ago, Ken I was hiring a still photographer for a shoot that we’re doing next week out west. And this shoot will be very intense. It’ll be physically demanding. It’s gonna be in remote areas in terribly of cold weather and who knows what kind of precipitation. And we need somebody to be essentially an over the shoulder shadow photographer, our media. Team’s gonna be doing all the, the motion content in, in house. It’ll be three of us out there. And then we need the still photographer to essentially try to get as close as possible to matching stills of the video that we’re shooting. So we needed somebody that is gonna be, you know, in physically in, you know, decent shape, not, they don’t have to be a bodybuilder or a professional skier, but you gotta be in good shape and you know, it’s gonna be early. It’s gonna be late. It’s gonna be all hours, night and day.
Alana Mediavilla:
So bad Paul <laugh> you interviewed people. It’s gonna be awful, man. It’s gonna be all day. I just wanna be clear with you before you sign on this. It’s gonna suck a
Paul Schmutzler:
Little bit. Well, that’s exactly right, because I’m, I’m trying to weed out the weak ones. <Laugh>
Alana Mediavilla:
Can you do that? You handle
Sarah Marince:
That. Okay.
Paul Schmutzler:
I interviewed two people. One of them is a guy we worked with before and he is a great dude, highly, highly experienced this fantastic work. And I got on the video call with him, just like I’m doing with you guys right now. And I, I kind of went over the, the plan with him. I was really enthusiastic, excited, this exciting, huge project we’re gonna get to do. And it’s like, Hey, lemme tell you all about it. What do you think? And he was kind of like, yeah, it sounds good. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And that was, that was as much enthusiasm as he had. So I said, well, let me try this other guy that somebody else had worked with in the past. So I get on call with him and he is like, oh, that sounds amazing is exactly the kind of project I’ve been looking for.
Paul Schmutzler:
This is you, you guys, your product is an incredible blah. I mean just went on and on and on. And then he sends me all these samples after we talked of here’s some similar work. I know I haven’t done exactly what you’re looking for, but this is some close stuff. And then he talked about what he loved about it and why it was, you know, he felt like it was relevant to what I was looking for guess which one got hired guys <laugh> photographer B the one we’ve never used before because this guy just came to it with what you said, Ken enthusiasm and creativity or passion and creativity. And that was really what sold him on this job. Now we’ll see how next week goes and maybe I’ll report back and say it was a disaster who knows, but no, I expect it’ll be an awesome success. And that was really, that was the key difference. They were, they were literally the same price too, when they both bid the job, they were within about $10 of each other. So there, there was no difference other than who do we feel like is gonna be a better fit and who do we, you know, seem to be connecting better with,
Sarah Marince:
You need that passion behind anything you do. You need to have that passion and excitement. Paul, what are some other things you look for when you’re hiring or like things that are red flags? Like what would be a red flag that you’re like, I’m absolutely not working with that person.
Paul Schmutzler:
Anybody that is really hardnosed on software or technologies. So for example, we hire a lot of 3d and 2d animators script drivers, which that wouldn’t be relevant there. Well actually it is. I shouldn’t say that. If they say I only work in, you know, 3d S max or, or Mya or whatever, then we’re gonna say, well, we use cinema 4d and shift. You’re gonna need to learn that. And if that’s an issue for them, then sorry for the writers and for other collaborators, we use Google drive for all the file transfer. All of our scripts are in there and they’re all, you know, accessible at all times to anyone. We all comment and edit, you know, together collaboratively on that. They’re gonna be a pain in the butt over, oh, I don’t wanna use this Google account.
Paul Schmutzler:
Or I don’t like using this. I prefer to have email documents or whatever. I’m sorry. Like you have to adapt to the way, you know, if it’s a big company like ours, like we have systems in place. We’re not gonna change them for one freelancer, no matter how, no matter how good you are, no matter how enthusiastic you are. So you’ve gotta be able to be flexible in those things. It’s one thing to nudge a little, you know, you can say, Hey, you know, have you ever tried this? I really find good success with it. You know, consider it, we’re open to that. We need to hear stuff like that because we’re a lot of times our blinders on because we’ve just been doing it that way for so long. We don’t need to change cuz everybody’s in that ecosystem and we’re good to go, but there are times where we may miss something that’s right over here next to us, that might be a perfect fit.
Paul Schmutzler:
That’s actually part of my role too, with our in-house media team is I’m kind of our technology evangelist. So I’m always looking for like, Hey, is this working really, really, really for us? Or is there some ways we can improve it? And then I might go to that network network of our freelancers and say, Hey, your other clients that you’re working with, what are they using? What are they recommending? What do you find is working better? And they can tell me about a platform I’ve never heard of that. Maybe a perfect fit for us.
Sarah Marince:
Awesome. We have a question coming in from John. Hey John. He said I’m learning to become a digital video colorist and plan on offering my services in months to come. How do you suggest offering my services? And what do you look for when hiring a colorist, such as a real website set up social media is offering free color on a project at first to get your foot in the door. A good or bad idea.
Leslie Wong:
I’ll go first. I’ll say I don’t think it’s a bad idea to offer free color. I think it’s, it’s, it’s actually I don’t wanna say you have to, and I also don’t wanna say you have to offer free color. I think it’s, it’s cool to like say, Hey, you know, I’d really love to, to do this for you at a, at a lower price or something like that, just to get your foot in the door. I mean, there there’s like definitely there’s definitely a lot of colorists out there right now and there’s a lot of competition. So like I would, I would definitely have a real, I don’t think you need a website, but at least a real, a cool social media presence is awesome too. You know, if you can post some of your own work but samples is, is what’s gonna get you the work. I don’t really, you know, I don’t at the end of the day, like you, you know, like obviously if you’re, if you’re cheaper than the next guy, that’s great, but that doesn’t matter to me as much as your work, you know? Like I wanna see good color, a good reel. And then like, like, you know, if you’re a hundred dollars an hour to like $300 an hour, it doesn’t matter to me. As long as you have, you have like good samples to show me. That’s, that’s what I think.
Alana Mediavilla:
I agree. We all wanna look good. So, you know, you hire good colorist, your, your looks much better. So yeah. Yeah. Super important. Definitely having good work is SU super important. I you know, everybody has their own stories. So always when you listen to people like what I’m about to tell you just know that I, I had to do what I had to do. So I became pregnant when I was 20 and I had to make money while my boy boyfriend now husband went to college. So I had to make money. I had to pay for birth classes. I had to pay for food, you know, I had to pay for everything. So I couldn’t say yes to free work. I just had to make money. That’s why I was working because I needed the cash. Otherwise I wouldn’t be working, you know, I, so I definitely had to make money.
Alana Mediavilla:
So I never took free work. I still don’t. I will do things at a discount, Leslie. Yes. Some things at a discount because I do think that you wanna have all of the, especially when you’re, it depends on the clients for right. Because if it’s just your buddy that you know, is looking for colorist and you know, he has a really tiny budget or she has a really tiny budget for their film. Yeah. Maybe you do that for free. Yeah. Maybe it’s like a great project and you do that for free. So it’s not like don’t do free projects, but I, if you really need to make money, like if you really actually have to bring in cash every month, I would say, don’t do free work because you wanna set up those finance lines very quickly with your clients. You wanna send them your direct deposit information.
Alana Mediavilla:
And when I hire freelancers and when I hire companies, I prefer to hire people that I’ve already have on QuickBook set up that I already have like ready to go. So that way, when I come back to them, you know, I, and I’m billing my client for that work as well. So I, I have a budget. So even if it’s so yes. So I would say from, from my perspective, I’ve had a lot of people come up to me and say like, or, you know, paying me and say like, I’ll do work for free, but I, what free is. And I am billing my clients for that. And so I’m not going to think with the free guy, because I wanna look good. I wanna hire the right person. So, and I’m billing my client for that work. So again, if I’m just getting some friends of mine together and I’m like, Leslie, let’s shoot that thriller.
Alana Mediavilla:
We’ve always wanted to do until, while I gonna edit it. Yeah. Maybe we do that for free because we’re all in. But, or because it’s that don’t but, but not because they’re clients, it’s just, you also don’t wanna let people know that you’re doing work for free. They’re gonna keep coming at you for free cuz now you’re working out your way up from zero. If you give somebody a discount, they feel like, you know, you’re still valuable. You’re still worth something, but you’re also be a cool person that understands that they haven’t worked with you yet. And you’re willing to give them a discount to get your foot in the door. I feel like it also just kind of now next time, when you wanna raise your prices, you can then raise your prices and they know that you got in at a discount. So yes, the discount is a good one free for me. Anyway,
Sarah Marince:
Ken asked another question in here about capturing or finding new clients. So, you know, is there, does LinkedIn work the best? Are there certain Facebook groups that people should check out cold calling just straight up emailing walking into an office for the first time? What, what works to find the new clients?
Leslie Wong:
I would say all of the above <laugh> but I think what also helps Ken is look at agencies. If you really wanna work for an agency, I would look at the agencies that you like, look at the agencies. You like find them on LinkedIn, try to connect with, you know, try to connect with some people. On LinkedIn. I, you know, I honestly, I’ve gotten a lot of work through LinkedIn, a lot of people, you know, I’ll just, if your profile is good, if it’s up to date, like people actually search for people for other freelancers and they’ll hit you up. So I, I, I emphasize like keeping your stuff relevant is, is really important. And like do the cold calling, do the email, you know, like if you really love a specific agency, just email them at their info email and be like, Hey, I’m a cinematographer. I just wanted to share my, my portfolio with you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And just, you know, start there and see, you know, so sometimes they’ll even take just an info meeting and just to meet you and, and, and, and talk to you. So, you know, all of those things are, are really great ways to start, you know, relationships with, with with, you know, with new clients.
Towela McMahon:
Yeah. I’ll jump in. I, it, it can’t hurt. I remember I used to look at like awards shows and then go through who the credits were on the award shows for any of the nominations. Like who’s the agency for this, or who’s the, who was the director for that? Like just scouring. I know that like, advertising does a big awards every like this time of year. And it’s like, good. Anyway, it’s a group of advertisers to get together. And again, just going through who were the agencies that want awards some of them I’ve worked with already, but, you know, you just never know. And, and, and like Leslie said reach out. But I do think relationships are always the best way to get your foot in the door if you’re, you know, if you’re likable. And so I would encourage you to scour your own existing relationships. I don’t know what roles you play in the film video world. But that’s one way also to just, just ask, ask people, you know, parents whose friends have businesses, or you just never know, but reach out in your, in your, in your own networks that exist. People who
Leslie Wong:
Know you will hire you. I just wanna add Ken. I think Ken said he was a cinematographer. I think it’s really important for you to, to build relationship ships with directors. Yeah. Cause directors are the ones that are gonna be the ones to bring you in. I mean, I have like, you know, a network of directors and I ask them first, I’m the producer. So I’ll ask them first and I’ll say, Hey, is there a cinematographer that you wanna use? And they’re the ones who are gonna tell me like, oh, I really wanna work with Ken this time and that, and I’ll bring you in. So, you know, I would definitely start to network with directors, you know, especially directors that you like their work. And that’s a great way to find new clients cuz they’re they’re at the end of the day, like I’m gonna, as the producer, especially with my agency work, I have to kind of go with what they want. You know, the director is the talent. So I have to say, oh, so you know, who do you wanna work with? And so I, you know, at the end of the day I don’t get to choose a cinematographer. They do. So, you know, nourish, nourish those relationships. It’s really important. We
Paul Schmutzler:
Have a, would say the key word is for me is personal, make it personal. I will accept most LinkedIn connection requests, even if I’m not sure who you are, if you seem somehow relevant to my work. So if, if you were to send me a LinkedIn request, which I expect I’ll get after this, I would probably accept it. What you do with that connection afterwards makes a big impact on me. If you immediately blast me with a form message, essentially with a whole bunch of stuff, probably not gonna get very far with me. But if it’s clear to me that you’ve tailored a message for me, and you’ve said, you mentioned maybe a specific project, but you go to sir, aircraft’s YouTube channel and you watch a couple projects and you say, wow, that most recent one you guys did about the launch of the new, new jet back in the summer, that was incredible.
Paul Schmutzler:
Who was your voiceover artist? Something that really makes it clear to me that you’re actually seriously interested in me and my company and what we’re doing, not just the guy looking for work. The same thing goes for an email. You could email me. Sure. But don’t add me to your constant contact list. I don’t want to get your, you know, your subscriptions. Also we’re a mobile phone only company. So like I just have a, a cell phone. I don’t have a desk phone, so there’s not like a, a tree to get to me. There’s no barrier. So if you somehow got my cell phone number and you just called me, then you’re likely gonna talk to me. I mean, like I will likely answer and talk to you. So if you were to do something like that, a cold call, a literal cold call, you’d probably get me and just be prepared in that same way, make it personal.
Paul Schmutzler:
Like tell me who you are, get to the point, you know, to don’t, you know, you don’t need to flatter me. Just, just tell me why you’re calling and just tell me, Hey, you know, I don’t know if you have anything relevant, but I like your work. I think I could do some stuff that might be helpful to you and, and here’s how I could maybe fit in. So yeah, just, just making it personal and making sure you you’ve done your research. The, the more general blasts to as many people as possible, just make a zero impact on me. I get so many of those and they just go right, right into the junk or gets deleted.
Sarah Marince:
We have a question from William. And he said, when you get jobs off of LinkedIn, how often do you post and what do you post? So I guess he’s asking, like, how often are you posting new work or update or things like that?
Alana Mediavilla:
I’m gonna jump in there. I worked in the social media team and my company focused on social media. And just like to just, like you said, multimedia graphics, illustrations gifts videos. I mean, basically all of the, all of the care cells for LinkedIn. I mean, everything that our clients needed from a multimedia perspective we were producing. So for my nine to five, I was so like, knowing about all of latest algorithms, knowing every time YouTube changed something. I mean, it was so plugged in that. And then 2020 happened and I feel like the lockdown and I was in San Jose at the time and like BLM and you know how Instagram got weird, you know? Like it was just like, just felt like you couldn’t really be happy on Instagram. You know? Like you had to really like come home. It tone it down and nobody was supposed to be with each other.
Alana Mediavilla:
So nobody was taking pictures of hanging out with friends. You just saw like five cups at a table, you know, like it was just so awkward. And I kind of got off social media in a way. I turned my Instagram private. Like I just felt like it was a time to, it was not thankfully though I had my clients and I had my repeat work that I didn’t really need to post often. And then I realized how much time I was wasting, posting thinking that it was important to do it daily. And because I knew all the algorithms and I read all the stuff and that’s what I was telling my clients that they needed to post X amount of days at these times. And we needed to follow the waves and like, oh my God, so many applications. And so many things of like the right time to post.
Alana Mediavilla:
And I just reached this like personal crescendo of like, ah, that then I just decided I am gonna post whenever I feel like it that’s it. And I have found that I, and not I’m, I don’t care if it’s like midnight. I don’t care if it’s the wrong day. I do not care because I more care that when Leslie or toll or Sarah or Paul or any of you come to my page, when you see what I have posted, I rather, those things now be things of substance than just, you know, that’s like all the stuff that I happened and yes, for companies and for other people that need to stay top of mind and relevant. And I have clients that I would, I would not like that we have to be on Twitter every day. So it’s like, of course we’re gonna create daily content, but for you individually, don’t, don’t overestimate social media.
Alana Mediavilla:
It’s like important, but you don’t really need to be on it all the time. Make sure you’re not spending like an hour a day writing some stuff for LinkedIn because I was, and you know, how many clients really came in the door and do you have enough money coming in already? Is it better to just send a personal ping to somebody than like some Testament on LinkedIn every day? And I feel like it’s a little draining to have to come up with yourself as like, ah, what you’re gonna put. So I would say I’ve gone through a huge social media transformation because I was in Silicon valley at the beginning of Facebook and Instagram from the beginning. So it was, I got to a point where now I’m like but my entire network is on social media, my entire family, my life, my contact. So I’ve come full circles to where now I am actually posting a little bit more frequently. But frequently as in maybe once a week, maybe if I skip a week, I don’t feel bad. Don don’t overestimate. It just stay relevant. If you don’t have anything good to say, don’t waste your time. Don’t do, don’t say anything.
Sarah Marince:
That’s very, very good advice. Make it <laugh> meaningful and personal to you. Don’t just post a post.
Towela McMahon:
I agree. I update more are like, based on just jobs and things that have come in my way. So when there’s something like Alana saying relevant, or every once in a while, when I wanna do something creative for myself, then I’ll, you know, I’ll post around that. But it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s very much organically built up and driven. I, I, I thought about it trying to keep up with it. And I was like, this is a full-time job. And people actually hire us to do this for them. So I’m not, you know, doing it for myself. Like you said, it’s a full, it’s a full-time job, you know? Yeah.
Sarah Marince:
So I know we’re getting close to the hour, but we do have another question that just came in from Dominic. Hey, Dominic. He said, my name is Dominic. I’m a PA for crew. And my question is can a PA learn our on set from other crew positions on set while doing PA work? I heard people saying that. And I was wondering if this is possible.
Leslie Wong:
Yes, it is possible. You learn from everybody. Yeah, totally. And that’s, and I encourage it. I encourage like, you know, if, even if you’re obviously don’t neglect your job, but like, you know, during your lunch hour or like, you know, if, if there’s like some downtime and you need, and you see like the grips and gaff needs somebody to help them move, move lights or whatever, or like help with like, you know, wrapping up, like introduce yourself and say, Hey, I’m, I’m available right now. Do you mind if I help you? Do you mind if, you know, you tee me what these, what these specific equipment pieces are so I can understand what you’re doing, you know, like, I, I totally encourage PAs to like explore every option. I mean, and, and even in your PA work, you know, like try to find like things that you like to do, if you wanna be a crafty, then like work closer to the crafty table.
Leslie Wong:
If you wanna be a grip, like, you know, definitely work closer to the electric department, you know, like make yourself available and like continue to ask questions. And, you know, like, I, I mean, there are definitely PAs in my network that are specifically, like, I know like, oh, I know to hire this guy for, you know, to be an, to be on the electric department because he’s great. He knows the equipment, you know, and, oh, I should hire this guy because he’s great at doing runs. I mean, it, it, it’s totally true. There’s PAs out there that are good at doing runs, you know? Like, and then there’s PAs that you totally absolutely trust to like, you know, pick up the equipment and not bang it up or, you know, get it locked in the truck and then you have to go buy a metal cutter to yeah, that didn’t happen. Oh, <laugh>
Leslie Wong:
Oh my God, I have stories. But yeah, like, you know, it’s, it’s, as a PA, I, I feel like starting out, you have the opportunity to learn everything and you should, and like figure out what it is that you really love to do and continue to push yourself to be that PA if you like art department, you know, volunteer at a PA for the art department and just learn as much as you can, you know.
Alana Mediavilla:
Awesome. Awesome. Well, we are about to wrap this crew talk and this hour went so fast. But I just wanted to have each of you go around and again, promote any like social media or, you know, website, if you want people to be able to get in contact with you. If you wanna just go around say that, and also you can type it in our chat box for everybody to find too. So Paul will start with you.
Paul Schmutzler:
Sure. you can find me on LinkedIn. That’s pretty much the extent of my social media. Paul Schmutzler it’s should be showing I think but I’ll put it in the, in the chat as well. I’m also on Twitter, but I’m reconsidering that slowly, but I am @theSchmutzler on Twitter. T H E sch Muchler last name. And if you’d like to email me, it’s just P Muchler SIRS aircraft.com. Very easy, but you can certainly just use LinkedIn if that’s simpler, too.
Alana Mediavilla:
Awesome. Well, thank you for being here and good luck on that terrible sounding shoot. You’re going on next week. <Laugh> Leslie.
Leslie Wong:
Yeah, I mean, I think I’m, I’m, I think the best way is LinkedIn for me as well. I mean, you guys can email me my emails, Leslie, at Amaya creative and Amaya spelled a M a Y a creative.com. But LinkedIn is generally the best to get in contact with me as well. And I just put it in the chat. It’s Leslie won <affirmative> so it’s Leslie won one, linkedin.com. Leslie won one. The number one <laugh>. Yep. So I hope to hear from you guys. I mean, I, I, I love I love networking and I love meeting new talent, so please feel free to reach out if you guys wanna, you know, connect.
Alana Mediavilla:
Awesome. Well, thank you for being at Leslie.
Leslie Wong:
Yeah. Thank you. You happy? Thank you for having me.
Alana Mediavilla:
Of course, Alana. Well, thank you for having me. This was great, and I’m really happy to meet all of you as well. So this was good. I hope I, I see that. Not every, not a lot of people dropped off, so we must have been pretty engaging. I put in my discord and my, my LinkedIn in there. I agree. I I’d rather connect on LinkedIn and discord and yeah, I I’m in terms of something to promote, I really wanna promote my discord just because I have found that I I’ve grown into, I guess, agency status and that I just constant that, which just means that I am hiring people constantly for <laugh> for stuff. And I’m always doing HR and, you know, just hiring all the time. And so I, so for me right now, you’re gonna come ’em to a point where some, you always need clients.
Alana Mediavilla:
So let me not say, I, if you wanted to throw work my way, I’m definitely down, but there comes a point in your freelance career where now you need more contacts than clients. Now you’re, now you’re asking questions like this, like, Hey, how do you find other freelancers to work with? Because now you’re, you know, you’re doing bigger things and you’re working with bigger clients, which means that you wanna hire the best you wanna hire, like other really cool people that are gonna, you know, go through a terrible all weather shoot. That’s gonna look amazing. So, you know, you need, you need those people in your life. And so right now, what I need, I need, I need humans. I need people. I need people in my network and we have a, we have a funny gifts, production channel too. So it’s pretty laid back. It’s pretty chill. And I hope that people that are on discord, it joined the community.
Sarah Marince:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And last but not least to.
Towela McMahon:
Yeah. So I LinkedIn actually I think it’s becoming my, my social network at the moment. I’m not I’m, I’m on it a few times a day, but I’m just finding it the most effective and, and relevant. It’s it doesn’t feel like fluff. So please. Yeah. Inbox me, hit me up, whatever you have questions or or you’re looking for freelances Alan, I’ll definitely be hitting up your discord for sure. Yay. Cause yeah, it’s all about the relationships and it’s been just a pleasure meeting with you guys and chatting.
Sarah Marince:
Well, thank you all the four of you for being here today and good luck with all of the projects you have lined up and for everybody else, I’m Sarah Marince you can find me @ sarahmarince.com or on Instagram. And I’m on LinkedIn as well. But I hope everyone has a wonderful December. I can’t believe it’s December already December and a wonderful holiday and we will chat with you all later. Thank you guys.
Alana Mediavilla:
Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Paul. Nice to meet you. Thank you.
