San Francisco Camera Crew and Camera Operators

San Francisco Camera Crew and Camera Operators

San Francisco Camera Crew and Camera Operators

We talk with a few Bay Area, CA based camera crews. We’ll talk about local projects, production life, experience, gear and much more.

San Francisco Video Production Crew Panel

San Francisco, California Production Camera Crew and Freelance Video Crews

San Francisco, California video production companies and freelancers join us to discuss their views on working in San Francisco’s video/film industry.

Sarah Marince:

Hello, everyone. Happy Wednesday. Welcome to crew talk brought to you by shoot stop video. I am your host for the evening. Sarah and I have two lovely guests on the panel today from the bay area. We have Marcos and Eli. Hey guys.

Eli Shell:

Hello.

Sarah Marince:

Thank you for being with us today. Before we jump into the conversation and questions, I just wanna let everyone who’s tuning in. Know if you have any questions or thoughts throughout this panel, you can drop all of those questions in the Q and a box and we will absolutely get to them as soon as we can. So don’t forget to drop ’em in the Q and a box. And I guess we’ll get started. Marcos, Eli. I just always, I kind of just go around and have you say who you are, where you are and just like a brief little description of what you do. So Marcos, you are first on my screen, so I will start with you.

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah. So Marcos Rocha, I’m a DP located here in the San Francisco bay area. I say San Francisco bay area. Cause if you’re in the bay area, you’re kind of working all the, like the east bay, the, the, the south bay, all this area. So I do mostly documentaries nowadays and, and commercials. So that’s where I try to focus on.

Sarah Marince:

Great. Well, we are glad to have you with us today and Eli. Hey.

Eli Shell:

Hello. All right. My name is Eli Shell. I am in Oakland. So that’s east bay and yeah, I’m a writer, director, producer, shooter editor, most graphics, artist, sound designer, all, all things, video video and film. So yeah, and I work kind of all over the SF Bay Area, just like Marcus was saying. And kind of, that’s just sort of the deal here. Sometimes it’s San Francisco, sometimes Oakland, sometimes south bay, sometimes it’s somewhere else entirely. But I was, I, I was really kind of focused on a, as being a shooter for a long time, but I’ve kind of transitioned into more of a writer, director producer as well. So

Sarah Marince:

Very cool. We’re excited to learn more about you today and your journey. So I’m gonna start with my list of questions I have here. And I’ll start with Marcos again. How did you get started in production? Can you take us from the beginning? Like what was the spark or the inspiration that got you started and how you got to where you are now?

Marcos Rocha:

Right. Well, it’s a long story. I mean just keep it really short. I started like looking at YouTube videos, right? Blogs were a thing, you know, many years ago. And, and I was looking at like, Casey, Nasta like, oh, that’s pretty cool making videos. And I started making videos of my own, and that’s how I first dabbled into anything doing with video. Right. And then slowly transitioned into weddings, filming weddings, and then I discovered you can actually do more corporate and commercial work. And so I started getting to that direction and slowly I kind of narrowed in on just being a DP. I don’t edit really. I don’t take on other roles, but in the beginning I was like, whatever comes my way. I’ll take it. I’ll do it. I’ll get experience. And that was good at the beginning. You, you, you need to dabble in everything that way you understand what is it that you like? And so over time, you know, if it I’ve been lucky enough to just dedicate myself to just being behind the camera,

Sarah Marince:

Did you like doing weddings? Cuz a lot of people are like, no, I won’t even touch it. <Laugh>

Marcos Rocha:

No, no, no. I I’m kind of happy. Like it, it, it is just, you know, like I was always looking for ways to get out of it, but it was the first the easiest ways to get paid, to do video. And it was my way out of my day job. So I’m thankful that I did. ’em It beats the heck out of having a day job you don’t like. So, you know, I’m thankful for them, but I never really loved them.

Sarah Marince:

Cool. Well, we are glad to hear about your journey and Eli. I’m gonna throw it to you if you wanna start from the beginning and just tell us how you got to where you are now.

Eli Shell:

Yeah. Great. Thank you. So let’s see, I will try to make this as succinct as possible kind of a circuit circuit route. Let’s see. So I was living in the small town in Northwest Arkansas. So artist, community where my been in breakfast graduated from high school and I was just kind of hanging out there, met someone who was teaching a film class. And so I got involved with that. I ended up directing a short film and that, that was a spark for me. We, we wrote it, we there’s this, this little team of bunch of late teens and early twenties. And we we, we shot, we wrote and shot a film and I was hooked, did another one. And got some sort of, I entered into some festivals, won some local awards some small local film festivals.

Eli Shell:

And I was like, I should go to school for this. So that was in Northwest Arkansas, packed up, went to Portland, Oregon, where I went to film school with the art Institute of Portland. And yeah, that’s when much like Marco, I, I wanted to learn everything. I think that’s key. That’s something I, I tell every person who’s starting in filmmaking video, that sort of thing. Just, just do everything, just learn every, every job, learn how to do everything and figure out where your niche is, but also it’ll help you be able to talk to people in those other jobs. So, so yeah. Then I formed a small production company with some friends while we were still in school, did some commercials some promotional videos, nonprofits, stuff like that. And then I got married and decided I should get a real job. And so that was in 2009 and 2010. So not a great time to start a company or try to find a job. But but I did, I landed a job at Stanford which is what brought me down here to the bay. And I was a video producer there for five years. And then I’ve, I am now full-time freelance. I’ve gone between having full-time gigs, part-time gigs, freelance, it’s all kind of just all played together that way. But now I’m, I’m full-time freelance.

Sarah Marince:

So you kind of dabbled in it before you were like, oh, okay. I can like really do this and go to school for it and jump into it. Full-Time

Eli Shell:

Yeah. Yeah. I I loved it. I knew, I knew I, I was, you know, I was about 21 or so, and I hadn’t gone to college and, and I was like, I should probably go to college for something. And then I did the film thing and I was like, yep, this is it. This is it for me. And you know, luckily I was able to get my first paying gig for a commercial while still in college. Which was, which was a nice sort of launching pad. I didn’t have to do too many weddings. I did some weddings, you know, everyone’s gotta pay the bills. But luckily I was able to, to sort of turn that one gig into another, into another, into another, and then that, you know, led me into a full time position at Stanford.

Sarah Marince:

That’s very cool. That’s a cool, cool journey that you had going on. So Marcos, what kind of projects are you currently working on?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, currently I’ve mostly doing documentaries. Next month I’m traveling to North Dakota to film my little creative documentary, but here in the bay area is mostly a lot of corporate commercial type of work. We have the Silicon valley, right. So the, that that’s the kind of work that that’s that’s out here. But you know, also a lot of documentary work comes here and so I get hired brought on for those projects. So yeah, so I, I think I’m just, again, nicheing down to like just documentaries and commercials and that’s about it or corporate commercials, that’s the stuff that pays the bills. And then there’s the creatives I guess projects that come around for me now is just more like music videos and, and but those are more rare, I guess I just stick to documentaries and, and that’s, I think the path that eventually I might just stop saying no to like corporate stuff and just do all documentaries.

Sarah Marince:

Do you have a favorite documentary that you’ve worked on so far?

Marcos Rocha:

I’ve worked recently on a TikTok documentary. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah. And it was pretty, I like, I like working on that one because the framing was really weird. It was kind of like, have you seen Mr. Robot where like, this person’s like locked down here? Their face is like right here. <Laugh> yeah, that’s what it was. It’s like their face was right here on the edge of frame and I like, wow, I wish that we did more creative stuff, more risky stuff. And, and cause most of the time it’s like very corporate and, and I like taking risks, you know, once you do start doing this a lot, you wanna take more risks, you wanna do more creative stuff, stuff that’s a little bit on the edges, as opposed to the cookie cutter way of doing things.

Sarah Marince:

Do you have like a dream documentary or project that you like to take? Some of those some of those bigger risks on that you know of?

Marcos Rocha:

Well, usually I’m not spearheading the documentaries. I get brought on different documentaries. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so the, you know, so I’m like just hired for the day or a couple days of filming to fulfill just a portion of the documentary mm-hmm <affirmative>. So I’m not necessarily involved with the whole documentary, which is kind of good because I just wanna stick behind a camera. I found that I’m not a producer or director. I, I kind of dabbled in it and I like, oh, this is not for me. I, I just, I, I like the creation of an image, right. Not so much like the, the cameras and the lighting and all that stuff. That’s what excites me, not necessarily the planning that goes behind it, like scheduling and, and calling crew. And is everyone vaccinated? Is everyone gotten their rapid COVID test? Ooh, I need to get that done today. <Laugh> for a shoot good thing. I, you know, good thing we’re talking about it. Yeah. All that stuff, all the logistics stuff is not my, is not what I like doing, you know, or even conducting interviews. Like I know it’s a skill and, and, and so there’s different people for different things. And I think that I’m just better behind the camera.

Sarah Marince:

<Laugh> well, obviously you’re very good at it.

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah. Right. <Laugh>

Sarah Marince:

Eli. What about you? Any current projects that you can talk about?

Eli Shell:

Yeah. let’s see. You know, we’re here in the bay, it’s mostly corporate work. There’s a lot of, a lot of tech companies with a lot of money. And, and that’s that’s what most of us do here. So let’s see, I got two different projects with my I’ve got sort of my biggest client right now is a company called Workday. They do a software for large organizations and stuff. They’ve done a couple videos for them. I’ve got a couple more coming up just in the very sort of early stages of both of those. And those are, I, I, I like working with, with with this team at Workday because they gimme a lot of creative control. It is it’s, it is what it is. It’s a corporate video. But they, you know, they say, here’s what we need.

Eli Shell:

This is the goal of this video. How should we approach it? So I, I can kind of, I write it and I, you know I, I sort of pitch like this sort of approach and, and then I sort of crafted in post and and yeah, it’s it’s great. So I’ve got those two projects. I’m working with a this, a kid, a children’s toy, subscription service, like one of those, you know, you get a, you get a, a box of toys every month sort of thing. And I just, we just had to kick off call yesterday and I’m, so for that, I’ve got a four year old, so like, you know, doing something, doing something for kids, I always love that sort of thing. So so yeah, that’s very, very early stages. And then, yeah, I’m writing a I’m writing a a short a comedy short that’s just it’s an excuse to get me into my first virtual production virtual motion capture production. I’ve got some techniques that I’m, I’m, I’m wanting to try out and gotta have a script to do it. So that’s what I’m, I’m working on right now.

Sarah Marince:

That’s pretty cool. And the kids toy subscription box, like, that’s brilliant. Like, I don’t know why I’ve seen that for dogs, but I guess for kids it would work too <laugh>

Eli Shell:

Right, right. I’ve, you know, I’ve, I’ve bought some of these for friends when they had babies, you know, and they get like they get a whole box of things for like three months in a row, you know, which is cool. This one is for a little bit older kids and it’s like geography and science focused, which is so cool.

Sarah Marince:

That’s neat. So,

Eli Shell:

Yeah. Yeah. So I’m really excited. Hopefully this is the start of a new relationship and I’m we doing a lot of work for him, you know, fingers crossed, let’s see how the first one goes. That’s kind of, we’re all on the same page. Let’s do one, but if this goes well, then, then you know, we’ll get more.

San Francisco Camera Gear Department

Sarah Marince:

Oh, well, we’ll keep our fingers crossed for you. Thank you. A question that everybody loves to talk about is well, the subject of gear, like what gear do you have? What are some must haves? So Marcos, what are some must have pieces of gear for you?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah. Well obviously you know, a camera that you can use for different kinds of projects. Right. I, I mean, I like I have the FX nine because that’s a highly requested camera for documentaries and I got it specifically for that reason and it’s worked out great. You know, I, I owned it instead of renting it. <Affirmative> I mean, I have a bunch of gear, like <laugh>, it’s ridiculous. You know, it’s like, I, I love gear. I love using it. I, I think it, it you just, well, the camera for anyone’s trying to be a DP specifically, you know, you, you need something that’s robust. That’s gonna last you a long time. And I know it’s hard to invest in like a cinema camera from the beginning. And I know that I did for longest time, I was shooting with DSLRs or mirrorless cameras and, and you know, they were fine.

Marcos Rocha:

They work out great. Like the technology has done so good. So, you know, anyone who’s starting out or wants to do this kind of work can do incredible work with that. But I am working with agencies or production companies who say, this is the industry standard. Can you show up with that? Do you have the lands? Do you have the standard tripod that, so you’re taking off these boxes, right? That you hear a lot that way. You’re not questioned about how professional you are, you know, like, well, how come you have that camera? How come you don’t have the industry standard? I mean, these are all great cameras. Don’t get me wrong. It’s just for me now, it’s, it’s more about, all right, let’s get the gear out of the way. And you know, so you don’t question me now, let me do my job, which is, to me, the, the real work is the, the creative side.

Marcos Rocha:

And you know, I guess that, that’s why I I’m striving to do more like bigger projects because I can focus more on the camera work, as opposed to doing smaller projects. You take on D you take on more roles. You do, you wear more hats, you have to set up the lights, you have to dress up the room, and then you have limited time to do that. So by the time you get to be behind the camera, like, wait a minute, I just wasted an hour, just blocking out windows because this is a small project. So, I mean, I, to me, I, I wanna do my work at a, at the highest level. And that means that I wanna work with crews that can fulfill all these roles, you know, that way I can do my job to, to, to the best of my ability

Sarah Marince:

Warren in the Q and a box has a question for you. He says, have you ever used a camera on set that you wished you owned or something that made you go out that made you go out and buy it?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, like the red, I guess that’s the first camera that people recognize and you get gooey and like, wow, look at that camera. If I had it, I, my li you know, I would make it, you know, it’s it’s, and, and then you know, down the line. Yeah. I mean, I have a red camera and it’s great. And, and, and it’s got me to work but it only got me work because I was already networking with the right people who are the right agencies or produced directors, whoever who said, Hey, Marcus, do you have a red? And like, no, let’s rent it. And they were hiring me more. And like, it just made sense instead of renting it and having to go pick it up at a rental house company, I own it. And eventually it pays itself off. So, yeah, I think the red was the first one that I, that like really excited me.

Sarah Marince:

Would you suggest for people who are just starting out to rent first before you buy

Sarah Marince:

Or is it better to own it? Like somebody calls you say we

Marcos Rocha:

Have to, it depends. I mean, I, I don’t want you to, like, I don’t want someone to hear that’s just starting out and go out and buy a red. It doesn’t make sense. It’s not a good financial advice for, it depends where you’re at. Right. For me, it made sense because I was already, like I said, networking and, and getting work from people that were expecting me to have a red. Right. So now it’s like, okay, now I can get rentals, but I’ve heard stories on YouTube people saying, oh, I bought a red and it was a waste of money. And, and to me that tells me maybe they weren’t in the right circle, or they weren’t getting the right. They, they just didn’t have the right where they were being requested that camera. I like, I don’t buy a camera just because I like it. I buy a camera because it’ll do the job. I’m trying to do the type of work I’m trying to do. Or it’s a, a requested camera that I’m hearing from people that I clients that I am working with. So it’s more I guess it just gotta make sense for you financially. You know, it’s also, they’re very expensive and, and I don’t think anyone should buy a camera just because they want it, unless it’s just I don’t know. It’s not an easy question to answer for anyone. It all a case by case basis.

Sarah Marince:

Well, yeah. Yeah. Eli, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah,

Eli Shell:

No, I was just gonna say, you know, that being said, yeah, I, I wouldn’t suggest anyone go out and buy a, buy a red for sure. But it’s helpful to have a camera. It’s, it’s nice to have something that you can just grab and walk outta the door with and start shooting. Like, it’s not a roadblock. Oh, I gotta go down to the rental house. Oh, I gotta fill out this paperwork, blah, blah, blah. You know, so I, I always tell people, get a DSLR, just get a mirror list, get, you can go get an a seven S or an a 6,500. I mean, that’s like 900 or a thousand dollars. Something like that. Put like a, you know, get a thr 50, get that like a hundred dollars, 50 millimeter lens, stick it on there for a thousand dollars. You’ve got a camera that if you work really hard, you can get some incredible content out of it. It’ll look great. If you, you just gotta, you know, work at it.

Sarah Marince:

Do you own most of your equipment or do you ever find yourself in a situation where you have to rent equipment?

Eli Shell:

I, yeah, I generally I own like, so I’ve got an Fs seven which is a lot like the FX nine, but earlier sort of version of it. Good on for that FX nine. I think that’s a, that’s a workhorse man. That’s a great camera. But yeah, I’ve got an FS7 and I’ve got a 7S and I’ve got some lights, I’ve got some microphones but invariably I need something. Often it’s a teleprompter or a Dolly rig or just some extra lights, you know, that sort of thing. So it’s nice to have the gear. I, I have a setup that I can, I could walk outta the house right now and shoot just about anything that was needed, especially if it’s an interview. But I’m, you know, to do the things that I wanna do, I’m gonna have to rent eventually.

Sarah Marince:

Makes sense. Yeah. One of the hot topics that we talk to everybody about is how things shifted for you when the pandemic started. So Marcos, when COVID arrived. Yeah. How did that affect you? Did you have to make a big shift at all? Did you adjust anything?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, well, I was actually lucky because I was transitioning out of weddings. I was like months prior, I was declining, declining and like telling my friend, like, look, I’m, I’m getting out of it for this year is the year. And, and cause the, the people I knew they were all winning filmmakers and I kind of was making a new group of friends that were actually doing more corporate or documentary kind of stuff. And so they knew not to call me really. And, and so like all the live events, you know? Yeah. Like for the first couple months it was like no work from anywhere, but then later on like three months, four months into it, like I started getting work corporate work, they still needed to pump out content. And so my business picked right up. Actually I was pretty busy. I mean, it’s hard.

Marcos Rocha:

I mean, sucks to say that, but for people to hear this, but yeah, like my business picked up again. I started getting a lot of work at the end of the year, towards the end of the year. And that was mostly because I wasn’t doing weddings anymore and I know my wedding videographer friends. They, they just, they took them a long time to get back up from that. But yet, I mean I think a lot of it had to do just, just having connections, you know, like I try to meet as many people as possible. Other filmmakers like myself who are doing the type of work I wanna do or producers and always stay on top of mind. And I think that helped, you know, when the times got tough. Yeah. Also like, I, I think I saw during the pandemic as like, I look at Craiglist, I look at gear and a lot of people retiring after 20 or 30 years in the industry or, or like people, random people like, oh, I’m selling all my gear cause I need money and, and I was doing video.

Marcos Rocha:

And so a lot of people dropped off, which was kind of good for those of us to stuck around.

Sarah Marince:

Yeah, we actually we heard that a lot or we hear that a lot from people that, you know, the pandemic hit and it sounds weird to say, but their business picked up their work picked up just, I mean, you weren’t doing it the same way you were before 2020, but they just found a way and people needed to get content out there for their businesses. And so a lot of people in your industry got a lot of work.

Marcos Rocha:

Yep.

Sarah Marince:

Eli, how about you

Marcos Rocha:

Couple months?

Sarah Marince:

Yeah.

Eli Shell:

Yeah. The it’s it’s lot the same, a lot of the lot of the same lines as, as Marcus. Right when the pandemic hit, I was, I was halftime at a, at a company and I was halftime freelance. And I stayed on at the company after the pandemic hit and they started doing all, you know, they, this company that I worked at, they did a lot of corporate events, like big conferences and stuff like that. And all that came to a halt and it all went on zoom. And so I was the only person who knew how to like record and edit and all that sort of thing. And so I started, I moved to this zoom scenario, but their, this company I worked for their biggest client was gonna have this giant conference conferences canceled. They got all their money back.

Eli Shell:

They had all this money that they were gonna spend and they were ready to spend it. So they did a whole series of zoom shows. They would, they would have a little in with some people and then they would have a big musical artist come on. And so the first person I talked to on zoom like one of the, it was like week two or three of, of of the pandemic was seal. I talked to sealed, like, <laugh> like, he just comes on zoom. I was like, oh my God, it’s seal. And I did his sound check for him. And then I told him that he needed to turn down his piano and and he was like, I think you’re right. And then he, and he went and turned it down. He, he showed me his house. He like turned his computer all around and everything and surprise. It’s a nice house. <Laugh>

Sarah Marince:

Yeah. That’s so cool. That’s wild. Yeah.

Eli Shell:

Yeah. So I, you know, I did, I did I did seal, I did Cheryl Crow. I did the guy from matchbox 20 you know, like all these big names and, and that was super cool. And then I was one of my clients is a, is actually a government organization San Mateo county. And they needed to get information about C out to their people. And they were like, we, we need a bunch of videos. We don’t have a bunch of money. So I was already kind of doing the one man band thing. That’s where I, this was sort the sort of transition I was transitioning from in freelance work, doing the one man band thing, you know, where I, I talked to the client, I produced it. I directed, I shoot it. You know, I edit every, every possible aspect of it.

Eli Shell:

And so I did a bunch of work for them. I was doing these like these cool concerts with these big name artists and everything. But then kind of, because of both of those things I got the opportunity to come on to a YouTube show that was it was all virtual. So the, so this guy that was a host, his name is Carlos Watson from Ozzie media, he was the founder and CEO of Ozzie media. He created this talk show and he’s doing zoom interviews with these big time celebrities. And since I had this experience you know, doing seal and Cheryl Crowe and all these different people you know, it was, it was sort of a no brainer. So I came on and I was helping him do that. And I was a studio producer. So I had a, San Francisco film crew of like three or four shooters and, you know, sound and it was sort of a, more of a kind of television environment, which is a little different for me.

Eli Shell:

That’s not actually what I, that’s not my experience, but it was really cool. And I really enjoyed it. And I stayed there for a year left, left, stopped doing freelance, left my other job. And I was there full time until that was until the end of 2021, September, October of 2021 is when I left there. But that sort of has transitioned me into more of a producer director who can bring on crew and, and does these sort of larger projects and has allowed me, has given me some sort of entertainment experience, branded content experience, which that was always sort of my goal. I like corporate video. I actually don’t mind doing, but, you know, the end goal is like, it should be cool to like make a television series or make a feature film, you know, that sort of thing. So getting, getting that experience as a studio producer, there was just invaluable to me. And so after I left there, I’ve you know, I’ve found some other clients and I’ve, you know, done, done a few other things, but moving in that direction producer director for entertainment, for branded content, not just sort of commercials and corporate work and that sort of thing. So it’s been a transition from sort of one man band and, and part-time at a company to full freelance as a producer director in branded content and in you know, corporate corporate stuff

Sarah Marince:

That is so cool. Like what a cool, I mean, not pandemic story, but just like the path that happened for you during the pandemic. We have a question for you in the Q and a box from Doug. Hey, Doug. He asks, do you use storyboards in your production or just work with shot lists?

Eli Shell:

Both. depends on the production. I, I will take a storyboard every time if the budget allows for it, you know, that’s, that’s always, that’s always the key. I will, I always start with the shot list obviously, but yeah, if I can get, if I can get boards, if I can find someone, a client who’s willing to pay for it and a, you know, an artist who’s willing to come on for, for that price. I love it. I’ll do some some boards, myself, their chicken scratch, you know, like draw thumbnail drawings, but but yeah, no, I love a storyboard. I think I was on a, I, I directed a commercial back in 2019 and or two commercials and that was in a studio and that was super fun. And what I did was we, we went out to a storyboard artist and then I printed out each frame on, you know, eight and a half by 11, put it on a giant board and then posterboard into the studio.

Eli Shell:

And then as we got each shot, big, you know, big cross mark through it, so everyone can see, this is what we are doing. I don’t have to explain everything. It was like, I didn’t wanna go to explain to the gaffer and the DP and every, like every single shot, you know, I was like, this is what we’re doing. I just like, point to this, like, this is what we’re doing. See this, the camera’s over there. We wanna do it like that. Right. Okay. Let’s go. You know, so it’s such a great tool if, if we can afford it.

Sarah Marince:

Very cool. So I wanna talk about life lessons or just advice or things you’ve learned over the years that you think just everybody in your line of business should know, especially people starting out Marcos, are there any really important life lessons that you’ve learned along the way or little bits of advice you would give to someone starting out?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, I would say get mentorship, get, make friends with people who are doing the type of work you wanna do and, and ask. ’em A lot of questions and, and I, I think you, you you wanna be open to learning from anyone basically, right? Or listening to stuff like this on YouTube. Listen. Well, that, that’s what I do on a constant basis. I think I never stop learning. You know, the, a lot, the lessons I’ve learned are from other people, other people, other DP’s, and asked them, how, how would you do this? How would you know, how much would you charge? You know, that, that was a big question is like, how much does this cost? And so there’s a huge learning curve and not just the technical side, but the business aspect. So you also have, if you’re gonna freelance you, you also have to learn the business side of it which is not a lot, not all of us sign up for that piece.

Marcos Rocha:

But it’s essential. Otherwise you don’t get to do this full time. <Laugh>, you know, and that was the hardest thing for me. That’s why I had a part-time job. And I was freelancing on the side for a couple years. And luckily I’ve been doing this full time for, for a couple years now, but it was just knowing how to charge how to carry a conversation and how to be comfortable with the bigger numbers. I, I think all this, you know, the read books on, on negotiating there’s the masterclass on negotiating. Have you seen that one? That’s really good. Yeah, it is good. I mean, and, and that’s just, you know, there’s different theories on, on, on how to, how to negotiate. So it’s just like, don’t, you know, spread your wings and, and, and try to learn as much as you can, not just the, the, the the artistry of filming, or if you’re trying to be a DP, don’t just learn the artistry.

San Francisco, California Video Crew Rates

Marcos Rocha:

I’ve seen that work for a lot of people where they just are pure artist and that works. They work for a production company and they don’t have to worry about how much things are gonna cost and how to bring in business and all that stuff. I mean, I always envied that from the beginning. That’s why I wanted, I didn’t wanna learn any of the business side, but didn’t work out that way. I had to freelance. And so that forced me to, to learn all these new new skill sets that otherwise I wouldn’t have learned if I had worked at a production company.

Sarah Marince:

I think the business side of freelance is so important, cuz it is such a huge part of it. I come from the voiceover world and as a freelancer, I mean, I know just, that was also a part that I was like, I don’t wanna do this. Like I just wanna record, you know, I just, you know, turn out those jobs, but yeah, it is so important and knowing your worth and what to charge also so important. I know for us, there is like a standard things that are non-union. There is like a standard rate guy that a lot of voiceover artists go off of. For you guys, how do you determine your rate? Is there a suggested rate card or website online you can reference or is it kind of just up to you?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, I mean, I’ll take a crack at it. I think that for me, I kind of came upon my rate based on asking other people who doing other DP’s how much are you charging? And so that you have to, I have to develop a kind, some kind of trust there. Right? They’re they’re telling you but a lot of people are hesitant to share those numbers. And I think it, it does a disservice to everyone because you don’t know that you’re undercutting everybody or that you could earn more. Yeah. If you just charge the proper rates. Right. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and so, you know, don’t, don’t make friends, like I said, make friends with people who are doing the type of work you wanna do ask them and you kinda figure out where am I at their skill level, or am I not at their skill level.

Marcos Rocha:

Right. And you, you kind of, you gotta be humble about where you’re at, right. I’m not gonna charge what a super high end DP is charging. Because maybe my skill, level’s not there. Maybe I could pull it up, but it is just you know, for the most part, I think you also wanna be cognizant because I, well, I’m dealing with agencies and they kind of know what, where things fall and, and they deal with a lot of people like myself. So they kinda have like, they expect a rate they’re, they’re already budgeted beforehand before even they come to me. Right. And, and if I’m too cheap, they’re like, why is this guy so cheap next? You know? Yep. And if you’re too high for your skill level, like that, guy’s on crack <laugh> next. So you kinda, you know, you gotta like be very <laugh> you gotta know where you’re at, you know, in, in life and, and your skill level and your market, you know, are you in LA, are you in, in the bay area? Are you in Dallas, wherever you’re at? And so their rates vary depending on the cities or the regions.

Sarah Marince:

Absolutely. And I think transparency in rates is super important because it does let everybody see, you know, where you’re at, where you should be. You know, are you under charging? Cuz if people are, you know, going under and under charging, then it affects everybody. You know? Cause then people get used to clients, get used to paying that rate and they just want that rate when it’s like, no, everyone should kind of be living here and based on school, you know, moving up, whatever. So I think I agree with you that it’s something that you should talk about over.

Marcos Rocha:

I mean, think about it. I mean, it’s human nature. We all love getting a deal. When, when I go to buy a TV, I, you know, there’s a market for everybody, you know, there’s people that want the highest price thing. There’s one, you know, maybe you want something mid tier. Like, no, I want the cheapest TV cuz I’m in college and I can’t afford anything else. Right. So there’s a market for everything. And so you kinda get what you pay for in a sense. And then another thing is you gotta understand what kind of client you’re dealing with. If you’re dealing for the small mom and pop store or a shop, they’re not gonna have a big budget, like a Silicon based company. And so therefore you can charge more if it’s, if you’re talking to a marketing manager who has this much allocated to this project and it’s not their money, as opposed to the owner of that store that you’re trying to pitch a video to, it’s a harder sell. And that, that took me a long time to understand <laugh> I, I didn’t have a business like understanding of like how people, you know, the, the psychology of money and how it works and, and the budgets and all that stuff.

Sarah Marince:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, 100% agree. I think it’s similar for all freelancers across the, you know, creative field, but I agree 100% with what you are saying. We have three questions in the Q and a box and I wanna make sure I get to them. So I’m gonna read Warren’s question says, as we all know a lot, not all of corporate work can be quite boring and clients aren’t willing to get creative. I always find myself stuck doing thousands of interviews B-roll et cetera. Only because it pays the bills as a DP who does a lot of corporate style videos. How do you find yourself maintaining your creativity or your drive to be creative and neither one of you can answer.

Marcos Rocha:

I don’t know. I just talked. Do you want to take a crack

Sarah Marince:

At it? Go for it. Eli, Eli

Eli Shell:

<Laugh> I do a lot of interview and B roll. I do a lot, like I know, I know exactly what this guy’s talking about. It is, it is difficult to get out of that. The key is to make the work, do the work you wanna make. So if, if you’re, if you’re stuck in, in a rut doing the same thing over and over and over again, go out and make the thing that you wanna make that doesn’t have a client attached to it. I know that’s a bummer to hear that like, well, I gotta, I gotta go out and work for free. Well, it’s it’s for yourself. It’s an investment in yourself. And and it’s gonna be fun. That’s why, it’s why, that’s why we got into this. Right? I mean like you wanna have fun. So make something that you like make something that you enjoy put that on your reel, put it on your website, you know, and like it could be a spec commercial, you know, it could be it could be a narrative.

Eli Shell:

It could be it could be any number of things could be just some cool experiments that you, that you wanna do and then put it out on social, make the thing that you wanna make and then put it out there. And eventually you will get clients who say, yeah, I want that. I want that thing right there. It’s it works the same way in Hollywood. Everyone gets pigeonhole into, this is what you do. And every producer in Hollywood goes like, oh, you make things that I want. Okay. I want you like, and then I don’t wanna do that anymore. Well, that’s, I don’t care. I want this thing, you know, so again, just go out and make the thing you wanna make.

Sarah Marince:

Well, thank you for answering that one. We have two more questions about rates again. So we’re gonna jump back Eli for the rate card or rate card rate questions to you, Sele asks. Do you change rates depending on the project?

Eli Shell:

I try not to. I, I, I generally try to try to hold to my day rate. And, and then use that day rate as a sort of guide for sort of everything that I do. Because I do, I do quite a bit when I’m shooting, it’s like, this is my day Ray. It comes with this, this equipment. That’s my time though. And so if I’m editing, I know it’s gonna take a half a half a to edit this thing. You get a half a day rate, you know? So I generally try not to, if it is something that I really believe in, then I might, but <laugh> I never, so this here, I, I know we didn’t, I don’t, this isn’t the advice question, but one, I’ve got a ton of advice, things I love to tell people, but

Sarah Marince:

How all tell us all of it. We’ll we’ll take, we’ll listen to it all.

Eli Shell:

Okay. So, so you know, one of ’em is you know, if you take a client, if you, if you, if, if a client comes to you and say, and you tell ’em you’re right, like, oh, that’s too much. Can you come down? I’m gonna give you more work in the future. Like they will ask for that rate every time, like you will, you will, you will, you are chained that rate forever and ever amen. Like that’s just the way it is. So if you’re okay with that rate, if you’re okay with taking that rate from that client for a long time, then yeah. I guess go for it. But generally I when I hear those words, it’s, it’s a hard, no, for me just like, oh, Nope. There’s a lot of shooters out there who, who, who will do it for that? Great. Good luck finding them. They go, oh, do you know anybody? Mm, Nope. Don’t know anybody, you know, like, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna foster. I’m not gonna push this, this pain onto somebody else, especially like a friend or a colleague, you know? So so no, I I J I try not to change, change my rates.

Sarah Marince:

Oh, Marco, what about you? Do you kinda keep the same rate throughout?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, I, I try to be, and I’m like a hard line. Like, this is the minimum. Obviously there’s a little wiggle room depending on the type of work, but I, I know, like, I don’t wanna, like, I have a minimum threshold, like, I’m not gonna cross this and, and you gotta understand like, like I’m, I’m nowadays I’m trying to do more jobs that are bigger scale and I’m slowly kind of saying no to the smaller projects, or just like, just getting brought on as a camera operator. I’m like, eh, it’s not really taking, it’s not really, I’m just showing up, pointing a camera. I don’t wanna do that anymore. And I know it’s like, all of us are here in the bay areas expensive to, to pay the rent. And you, you often think about these things like, well, I need that money.

Marcos Rocha:

I could pay the rent. Right. But there there’s a, I think we also, as a, as myself, I, I feel like I need downtime in order to make more space for the type of work I wanna do, cuz you can, I can fill my time with stuff I don’t wanna do, which takes away from the stuff I really wanna do. You know? And so it’s necessarily not everything’s about money, you know? So I think it’s it’s, it’s more about what I wanna do for the future. What excites me what’s get, gets me outta bed. And which often means like, I, I, I use, I might do something cheaply if I really love the, the project, like that’s exciting and which often happens, you know, I might work on a short film cuz it’s really exciting and there’s no pay and that’s fine.

Marcos Rocha:

Hey, we’re gonna shoot an amorphic lenses, which you can’t do with corporate <laugh> jobs. You know, you can’t take much many risks. So I, I guess another another point I wanted to touch on is like I do get a lot of like, like back to that question about most corporate jobs are pretty boring. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> sometimes I just get brought on as a, the client is expecting something very basic just for me to show up and always try to give them way more for my own sake. Meaning am I gonna be proud of this? Is this real worthy? Like, like, is this something I would be proud to show? Or just for my sake, am I proud of this shot? And if I’m not, like I might come in extra early, I push the client, like, look, I’ll come in extra hour. I’m gonna make it look beautiful, make it look nice. And you might not expect it, but it doesn’t matter. It’s for me, you know, and, and that I’m scaling up the, the level of production I’m doing because that in return will get me better work. That make sense. Yeah, absolutely opposed to like the budget is this, and I’m giving you this, like, no, the budget is this. I’m giving you this because this will give me that over there. So I think about it in that terms as well.

Sarah Marince:

Yeah. No, that, that totally makes sense. Do you guys in your field, do you work with agents or managers who are working like on your behalf to get you work are like representation.

Eli Shell:

That’s the dream.

Sarah Marince:

Okay.

Marcos Rocha:

That’s the dream <laugh>, that’s the dream <laugh>

Sarah Marince:

Well, there are agencies that you know, are solely looking for work for you

Eli Shell:

That would like that’s the goal that’s that I would like, that’s what I’m, that’s what I’m working towards. But I don’t have representation at at this point, but hope to,

Sarah Marince:

So when you’re seeking representation, what are some things that those agencies look for? Is it a real with this, this, and this, or this many years of experience? What exactly do those agencies look for?

Eli Shell:

So in my experience sort of going back to the, the question about like boring corporate stuff agencies are looking for people who do this thing, like, oh, we, we need a music video director. So they, they, they look for someone who’s got a ton of music videos on their real, you know, like, oh, we need, we need a not just a commercial director, but like a car commercial director or a beauty products, commercial director, you know, like, and I, I can say director, but producers as well and shooters and, and that sort of thing. Those are, you know, the larger agencies and you can come on at a, at a production company. And you know, then, then you get a little bit more breadth of, of work. But I find that agencies and I don’t have as much experience with managers, but agencies generally, they they’re looking for that thing that they, like, they’re looking for this specific thing. And if you don’t fit that box, then, you know, onto the next guy,

Sarah Marince:

What about you, Marcos?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, I mean, I don’t have representation. I think that the, usually people that have representation are like the cream of the crop kind of people, they, they are working the, the big film crews, you know, and I, I, I don’t think I’m quite there. I’m working more on the medium size cruises. Like, I don’t know, from a single person myself to, I don’t six people, you know, and it depends like the, the on the camera department, I usually it’s just myself and a camera assistant or focus pool or stuff like that. But once you get representation, you’re probably working on a 20 plus film crew kind of like that, that level of production, you know, and you need to have a couple of those under your belt. And, and I think that that’s the real challenge for myself as a DP. Who’s trying to make that kind of work is how do you get that level of trust if you have not worked on those sets or like spearheaded, like I’ve worked as a camera assistant or camera operator, but not spearhead as a DP, those bigger productions. And so yeah. It’s experience and also your, your portfolio, right? It has to match a certain level of quality before you, I guess they start reaching out to you.

Sarah Marince:

Absolutely. But it’s just something, I guess that takes time, like anything, you know, you put in the work and eventually it all pays off. As we get closer to ending today I wanted to ask where do you think, or where do you see your industry going in the next few years? Are there any major changes that you’re noticing that’s happening or things that you have to kind of kind of adapt to that are new, that would be coming along?

Eli Shell:

Yeah.

Marcos Rocha:

I’m interested in Eli. What, what I’m interested in, what Eli has to say.

Eli Shell:

<Laugh>, I’m, I’m super stoked about virtual production. That’s that’s sort of, I I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m writing this blog post right now is we’re gonna out today about how the, when it we’re sort of in the same spot right now that when the red one came out, I know you, I know you’ve got it red over there, Marcos, but do you remember when the, when the red one came out, this is like 2008, 2009, 2010, something like that. It was like every film nerd, every camera nerd was just like, jaw on the floor, drooling over this thing. Like, oh my God, this is gonna, this is gonna change the way we do things, you know, and everyone was so, so excited about it. And I went on some shoots as a PA and as an a AC and stuff like that with the red and like, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s definitely, it was a cool camera and everything, but you know, no one outside of the industry really care about the re the new camera.

Eli Shell:

It’s like, no, no, you don’t understand. We’re talking four or six K resolution interchangeable lenses and blah, blah, blah. You know, but people loved the book of Eli, right. That was shot on the red one, you know? And so like, we’re, that’s where we are with virtual production right now. I think there’s a lot of people in the industry who are like super, super excited about it. What matters is the content that is created from it, you know? And so, so I’m really excited about virtual production. I try not to get too focused on the tools cause I still just wanna make great content. I think that’s the key, that’s kind of what I’m getting at here, but the democratization of real time 3d rendering motion capture technology for both camera and body tracking, face tracking, all that stuff is really, really exciting.

Eli Shell:

It’s come down in price now where not like just anybody can afford it, you know, but people who are investing in themselves and investing in, in this technology can, can start to afford it. I mean, we’re talking about with you know, unreal integration, you know, we all saw the Mandalorian, right. And the behind the scenes on it and the, the L E D wall and everything, you know, they used unreal the, the software unreal to, to make those backgrounds happen. And you know, you can get a machine that can make that happen for like five or $6,000, you know, so you gotta get the L E D wall or a green screen. I mean, there’s a lot more that goes into it than that, but it’s no longer just the purview of like Marvel and Disney and Lucas film, which is all Disney, I guess. But so, you know, that’s, that’s what I’m really excited about right now for the future virtual production motion capture technology and the sort of democratization of the technology to allow not just people at the top to to do this sort of stuff.

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Well, that was an awesome answer. So solid,

Marcos Rocha:

Well, I mean, I think that’s the most exciting thing that I’m hearing about as well. But like on a, on a smaller scale, I think the, what I saw since the pandemic also is just more, more remote productions. Directors are not flying in, or producers are not flying in and they’re like, can you just show me the camera angle through zoom? And I plug it and they can hear the voice and they just conduct the interview remotely. And I think that, that I do that a lot, you know, just on the, which is great. You know, sometimes it’s just, you don’t have the producer director looking at you, you know, just seeing how you’re working and, and so you just see them, you connect the, the camera to zoom and then they off they go, you know, so it’s definitely sped up productions.

Marcos Rocha:

And I think that just the current way of things we are just consuming a lot of content, which is great for all of us who, especially for documentaries any kind like I guess documentaries are things that can be produced cheaper than I guess TV show series, right? Because documentaries, you can have an interview and they can stock footage and all this, like doc whatever, and they can make long form content, which is great. So I’m involved in some of those productions and, and so, you know, I love doing it and I <laugh>, I wanna do more of it.

Eli Shell:

Yeah, man, remote has really has really kind of changed the game. That’s what I was doing at at the Carlos Watson show, I was on one side of that, where I was in the studio and I was, you know, facilitating the, the feed, the camera feeds, going out to the producers and the directors who were often in LA and then early this calendar year. Right, right in like right around the January, I produced a show from my house sitting right here for there was, we had a host for a show and she was in Portland, but it was a CES show, which was in Vegas. And we had people zooming in the show. We had like, Steve, I gotta talk to Steve, which was fun. And we had different celebrities coming in from all over. And then we had reporters who were in New York. So, I mean, it was just like every direction and it was so fun. It was so cool to be able to talk to these different people in all these different spots. And also like I’m on the phone with like the DP, like yeah, can you, we need to push in a little bit, you know? And then it just happens. Like it’s yeah. I love remote. Like, it’s really, it’s really a change the game for sure.

Sarah Marince:

That’s awesome. And you gotta talk to Steve, like that’s so cool. <Laugh> you gotta talk to some really cool people.

Eli Shell:

Yeah, man, Steve is really nice. He did the whole thing laying in bed with his dog. It was hilarious. Like, and he was just, and he was so chill. I was, I was trying to get off. I was like, okay, that that’s our time. Thank you. And he was like, oh, I can hang out. If you guys wanna, you guys wanna keep talking? I was like, no, I didn’t know what to do. <Laugh>

Sarah Marince:

That’s awesome. That’s super cool. We do have another question and both of you can answer this if you’d like, what do you do differently on set between a camera operator versus a DP?

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah, I think a DP, I think oversees a whole image, right? Says, we’re gonna do a light here. I want it to look this way. I want it. I don’t that window’s too bright. Let’s cut it. And it’s talking to the gaffer or the grip and like, I don’t, let’s put a hair light, let’s do this. Let’s do that. Camera operator might not take on so much, so much of that responsibility. They might just be behind the camera and they might take orders from the DP saying, Hey, can you gimme more headroom? You know, in this like movie production, Hollywood, the DPS often don’t touch the camera that they, they have camera operators and they just tell ’em exactly how they want things. But DPS sometimes like myself, I like having control. So I like touching the camera as part of the reason I, I sign up for it, becoming a DP. I want that plus the responsibility of shaping the light and, and any kind of movement that we’re doing. I kind of like you, you work with the director to work out the plan. So it’s very integrated with the director and gaffer. So it is it just, you kind of become a there’s just more responsibility that’s involved with it. More planning, you’re more involved in the planning of the shoots.

Sarah Marince:

Eli. Do you have anything you wanna add to that?

Eli Shell:

No, that that’s pretty much it. Yeah, the DP, the DB’s the one in, in charge in these and the gaffer reports to the DP. And then there, and the camera operator will report to the DP. They’re the ones who are, like you said, shaping, shaping the image, the director and the director of photography, talk about how they’re gonna make it happen, you know? And then they go off, the director goes and talks to talent and producers about what DP goes, talks to gaff and, and ACS and, and, and camera ops. And then, you know, sometimes in like LA productions, it’s just a matter of how much you get paid. Like <laugh>, they, like, they don’t wanna pay you a DP rate. They’re gonna pay you a camera operator rate, which is, you know, not the best way to go about it, but you know, it is, it is sometimes the deal.

Sarah Marince:

Yeah. we have discussed a lot today. We’ve covered a lot of topics and your, your answers have been wonderful. Thank you guys so much, both of you for being here today and giving all the advice that you did. We always end each panel each webcast. Just once again, saying who you are, where people can find you, whether it’s Instagram, your website, you wanna promote. If there is anything specific you wanna promote, you can go ahead. And you, if you can also type it into the chat box as well, so people can find you on social and Marcos, I will start with you.

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah. I mean, if you wanna see more of my work or reach out, you can find me on my website. Marcos dp.com, M a R C OS dp.com. I also have a YouTube channel. I do like gear reviews and tutorials and behind the scenes of stuff. That’s on youtube.com/marcosrochaTV M a R C O S C H a.com. No, just RO TV, not.com at the end. <Laugh>

Sarah Marince:

Very cool. Yeah.

Marcos Rocha:

Awesome. You can find me there. You can also find me through my website. So

Sarah Marince:

Very cool. Well thank you for being here.

Marcos Rocha:

Yeah. Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Marince:

Yeah. Eli, go for it.

Eli Shell:

Yeah, you find me on Instagram and LinkedIn, LinkedIn thought you’re gonna be your best bet. Sadly, my website broke like earlier this week, I was in a mad dash to try to fix it today and I decided to stop trying to fix it. Don’t go to my website right now. But if you do go on my website in a few days it is just Elishell.com and so just check, go, go there. But I’m also on Vimeo. And then yeah, LinkedIn is probably gonna be your best bet for connecting with me.

Sarah Marince:

Very cool. We will not visit your website today, but maybe on Friday. We’ll see. <Laugh> there you go. Marcos, don’t forget to get your rapid COVID test.

Marcos Rocha:

Oh, that’s right. Damn it. I blank out, you know, like I was so into this conversation, but thank you for remind me.

Sarah Marince:

Of course. No, this was super fun. Thank you guys so much. And for everybody out there, I’m Sarah Marince. You can find me @ www.sarahmarince.com and Sarah Marince on Instagram. I’m here for all your voiceover needs. All right, guys. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your week.

Speaker 5:

Thanks Sarah.

Sarah Marince:

Bye.

Sarah Marince:

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