Hiring platform for film and production – Crew Me Up

Hiring platform for film and production – Crew Me Up

We talk with Josh Friedman, the creator of the first On-Demand marketplace connecting the people making the movies.

Panelists

Transcript from Talk

Bonnie Williams:

Hey everybody. Welcome to this Wednesday of March, 2022, which is flying by really quickly and welcome to crew talk, talk brought to you by shoots.video. My name is Bonnie or Bonnie Marie Williams. If you’re the lady at the DMV, and today we’re gonna be chatting about crew me up with some fabulous guests. We’ve got Mike and Josh here with us, and Sarah will be joining us shortly. I know I’ve got some questions for each of you, so let’s get started. Josh, if you would like to go first and introduce yourself.

Josh Friedman:

Sure. My name’s Josh Friedman. I’m a filmmaker currently working as a DGA assistant director on a TV show. I wrote a book a very long time ago called Getting It Done, the ultimate production assistant guide, which trains PAs and bridges the gap, the tour between film school and working on union stats. And most recently in 2020, I launched Crew Me Up with my partner and so first we educate people. Now we’re helping ’em find work.

Bonnie Williams:

Fantastic. I love it. And Mike?

Mike Camoin:

Bonnie, thank you for having me Mike here in upstate New York, Albany New York. You know, I got into filmmaking, started my company called videos for change production. So I started with documentaries. Then I got into location scouting for films that started to come up here. As the tax credit was created around 2004, we started to see a boom up here and started the Northeast filmmakers lab. And it’s into its ninth year now. And we take a handful of projects and we workshop them intensely over a three day span. And it’s just incredible to watch filmmakers grow and learn how to articulate what it is they’re actually working on.

Bonnie Williams:

That’s awesome. This is so interesting to me because I don’t really work on that side of everything. So I just, I sit here and just listen all day. I think that’s awesome. Well, I’m really glad that you both are here.

Bonnie Williams:

Josh, I wanna elaborate a little bit, you were talking about how you got started and everything. Could you just tell us a little bit more about how you got started in production?

Josh Friedman:

Sure. I was one of those very lucky people who knew somebody and so when I was in high school, my guidance counselor was married to the producer of law order, criminal intent. So I had that introduction and flash forward to my college graduation. After I graduated, I literally moved straight up to New York, gave him a call and I said, Hey man, I’m here. I’m ready to work. And he said, great, good luck. And so I, yeah, yeah, I did the thing. So Craigslist, then staff me up at the time I I worked for free, I did music videos, I made student films, and to pay the bills I was bartending. And then a year later I called the guy up and I made this decision that I didn’t wanna do it anymore. I wanted to take that next step in my phone career.

Josh Friedman:

And I had $200 left in my bank account. I quit the bar job. I called him up and I said, Hey, I’ve been working for free. I’ve been doing this, this and this. And it was much more humble this time. And he said, let me see if I can do something. And two months after that, I got a call from the second ed on law order, criminal tendencies seven, they said, we’ve got a position open. It’s a walky PA, would you like it? I said, I know what that is, but yes. And so that was the beginning of the end for me. From there, the track was 600 working days on union sets to join the directors Guild of America as an assistant director. And I accomplished that in 2011 on a show called person of interest. From there I used the skills to start producing and I apologize, we have special guest this ISY <laugh>

Bonnie Williams:

That little face.

Josh Friedman:

So he is the Crew me up mascot. And he is the OG crew.

Bonnie Williams:

I love that. So speaking of what is Crew me up?

Josh Friedman:

So Crew Me Up is a mobile application that connects filmmakers with each other’s opportunities and resources, and we don’t do it the way you typically would with corporate monsters. The way we do it is we offer profiles and the idea is not to post and hope that somebody answers the idea is to let people know that you’re available. And when looking, they just find you and make an offer. So to get into kind of the creation of the app, I was producing a movie in Texas and we had to fire our gaffer. And at that point I was literally six hours from the nearest piece of equipment, let alone people. I know. So we ended up flying someone from New York for that one. The first problem I was trying to solve with is I’m in a location where I don’t have resources, where can I find them? And then I got back to New York where I’ve got 700 production assistants at my disposal, and now the problem is not who do I call, but it takes 60 phone calls to hire six people. So who’s available. And that’s really what we solve those problems in a different way.

Bonnie Williams:

That’s awesome. We love problem solving, right? Especially, can we do something faster, more efficiently, and bring people together. I love that. And exactly what

Josh Friedman:

Is not just with the hiring. We had vendors too, so awesome. If you need camera rentals, insurance, education, film, commissions, podcasts,

Bonnie Williams:

That’s even better. I love it. And what is your current role within crew me up?

Josh Friedman:

So I am the founder, CEO and creator. And then I have a co-founder of Omni who heads up community outreach and he’s actually in Los Angeles right now. So we can’t tell anybody this, but there is a group that he is a family member of that will be announcing shortly and it has to do with the diversity initiative. So look out for that.

Bonnie Williams:

That’s awesome. I’m here in LA too. So I’ll, I’ll keep my eyes peeled while I’m walking by, in and out. Keep my eyes peeled for that. That’s awesome. I love it.

Josh Friedman:

I think he’s in north Hollywood.

Bonnie Williams:

Oh, Hey. Okay. So he’s my neighbor. That’s even better. I will go by him some in and out. There we go. <Laugh> that’s awesome. I’m gonna come back to you cause I do have some questions for Mike who’s hanging in there. So we are talking a little bit about some of the things you have going on right now, and it sounds like you have a lot of interesting projects going. Can you tell us about some of those?

Mike Camoin:

Oh, sure. But first I just wanna say that I don’t think I’ve ever been on a film set where somebody either disappeared or we needed somebody and there’s always this, you go to who can you go to, to fill in that gap? So I, you know, I can’t wait to hear more about the, the Crew Me Up app. And I’ve got stories around that. I, I could tell you a story like on frozen river which was a short before it became the feature that was shot in upstate New York with Melissa Leo and late Misty Upham. But we lost we lost our a D and we lost some other crew and, and boy you’re scrambling those times.

Josh Friedman:

So you, Mike, do you know, so first on frozen river? Yeah. When I was a PA on lawn order that first season. Yeah. My background PA the Dean became the second ad on frozen river and that’s how I became a background PA because he left.

Mike Camoin:

Mm. So like, and I was about to fill in, they were about to put me in as the ad and I had no experience. I was the key set PA and, and it was like a scramble and it was freezing now. It literally was frozen river. We’re close to the Canadian border. Yeah, that’s what happens. And, and yeah, they had to, they had to go find somebody from New York

Josh Friedman:

<Laugh>

Mike Camoin:

Yeah. So that, that’s just a great resource that you’re creating Josh. So Bonnie videos for change started with a subject in also in upstate New York. But there was nothing here. I, you know, I didn’t even have a phone call with anybody there was, at that time, there was what’s called the Saratoga film commission, but they primarily focused on big feature films age of innocence and things like that that were shot up here. There was no film course for me to take. I had to go down to New York film, video arts. So I’d go down to New York city study with Barbara Zimerman and others on the, you know Doug block on, on documentaries. But I finished my I first dock in about six years called inside the blue line followed that with battles of Saratoga and, and then worked on frozen river, whatever was gonna come up this way up river.

Mike Camoin:

But today fast forward I’ve created, what’s called Sally may not. It’s it it’s the pilot to the scared to debt series, which is exposing America’s student loans, scam. And you know, you, you get into these documentaries and you just realize they affect that this particular topic affects everybody and you work on a shoestring and you somehow make it happen. That particular piece, Sally may not won the whistleblower summit audience choice award in July. And so now we’re turning that into a series, cuz there’s just so much information. And I was out on Sundance in 2020, and you just, people ask you, what are you working on? And everybody’s got student loans in this industry. And it’s really a weight. It’s a burden on, you know, people being able to make creative decisions. I talked to people who are teaching on the west coast and they’re they, one guy said to me, look, I mark, I, I make good business decisions, but the debt here I regret ever going for my PhD and, and or, or masters in, in, in film and video.

Mike Camoin:

So that project is we think you’re, you’re gonna hear a lot more about that in the, the coming months, scared to debt. I just started a new doc on it’s a sports doc called the heart of Bon basketball and it’s on my Alma mater or St. Bonaventure. It’s it’s as we say, it’s a story only on alumni I can tell, but it takes a, a look both the pat way a in the past through this period of scandal to today where, you know, the school almost went under as a result of this scandal, it was one of the top seven scandals in all sports history. And here they are today, they’re, they’re hoping they’re knocking on the door, the NCAAs again. So it’s something that I’m, it it’s, you know, in terms of the, the student loan doc, which is kind of a downer, this one’s kind of an upper and it’s fun. And, and and we’re just getting started on that as well.

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Yeah. Student loans. I know <laugh> yeah. I’m officially this year, 11 years out of college and I still have friends and, you know, graduated with our, our degrees in theater and acting. And I know a lot of people who still have theirs I’m, you know, I’m very fortunate that don’t, but it was through unfortunate means that my student loans were paid off, but I know from my friends and very close people, how, how hard that is. So I appreciate that you are bringing a lot more of that to light and talking about that, that, especially in, in my generation. And, and I think that’s, that’s really that you’re, you’re doing more to not bring awareness to it, cuz we’re all aware of it, but really talking more about how it’s everybody and it’s affecting so many people. So that’s just, and

Mike Camoin:

Can I just, can I just jump in, in case anybody listening also carries student loans, which is 25% chance that they do do this is, I just wanna say, this is not a bad borrower problem. This is a bad lending issue. And when I started it five years ago, all you saw in the media was the bad borrower and this, and you know, why can’t you pay on your loans and stuff like that, you know, and the what, what did the pandemic do to our industry? And to most street exposed all the cracks, and this is one of them. And you know, the cost of college is still going up even been in the middle of a pandemic. So there’s no belt tightening because there’s no breaks. I can tell you this, there’s no breaks on this system. They were removed by Congress and the lending business, all wall street.

Mike Camoin:

So we wanna be able to finish this series. It’s a six part series and, and tell it all as to why, you know, how people are indentured by this. And, and my gosh <laugh> I had a good fortune of showing Sally may not at USC in October, true story, the profess who heads up Michael runoff heads up the, the docs program. He says, I wanted to show this because I feel complicit as a professor of film school. You know, we know how hard it is to be in this industry. And we know not everybody stays in it and we know that people don’t make it and they wind up doing something else with, with their degree. So, you know, to be a part of that. And, and then, you know, you’re charging people $70,000 a year, times four that’s a lot of money, you know? And so thanks to programs like this, people are learning other ways of, you know, surviving it in this industry and, and growing their craft with hopefully without the debt.

Bonnie Williams:

Yeah. I know we’re probably all sick of thinking about the pandemic or sometimes I call it the panini just cuz when I’m hungry. But <laugh>, I would love to hear about how each of you is pivoted during the pandemic. Josh, I’m sure you have stories with that. I’d love to hear any of those stories about how you have pivoted during the pandemic, especially running a business. That’s something that I think a lot of us had to do, but

Josh Friedman:

We, we didn’t really pivot. We just kinda stayed the course. You know, from, from a production perspective, yes. Everything shut down. So it was March 15th, it was a Friday was that 15th or the 13th, one of those I was on love life for HBO and the studio call, we literally showed up to set, got the cast through hair and makeup gear, stayed on the truck, had a production meeting. Everybody came in and it was pack it up. We’re going home, we’ll see you when we see it. And so that was it. And I’ve never seen anybody wrap so fast. Like all the gear was returned within 24 hours, everything was shut down <affirmative> and so that’s kinda how it started. And so for Crew Me Up, what we did was we switched from trying to acquire users and trying to find jobs and opportunities for them to educating them about what’s going on.

Josh Friedman:

And so first we started educating about the virus as we started learning about it. Then we started talking out the white papers and the safe way forward and the back to work agreement between a and PTP and the other unions. And so we started sharing that knowledge and then once production started coming back in November, we we switched back to user growth and all the other initiatives. And then personally, November, I was on a movie set. And it was very, very different this time. It was a bubble. So we had testing protocols. Everybody had to be tested daily and this was before rapid. So <laugh> you gotta wait and it might come back in 24 hours. It might come back in 72 hours. So if you can imagine I was a key second on that. And my first ad, my director, they weren’t allowed on set because their results hadn’t come in, but the cast and the crew could.

Josh Friedman:

So thank God we were all in the place where they could be separate, but together I had them on a porch inside a house doing the air jobs. Well, the cast was across the way at a different house doing an exterior shot so they could yell across and actually work. But it was a very different way of working. Now, now I think we’ve all gotten used to it. So we go in and everybody knows, you have to test before you can even set foot and hair and makeup wardrobe before you can come to your trailer. So the cadences we just gotten used to and that’s it for us, it’s about educating. And if you take the DGA stance, which we often do, it’s wait, collect the information, collect the information and make an informed, calculated decisions. That way we don’t jump the gun and make mistakes

Bonnie Williams:

Right on. And Mike, how did you pivot during the pandemic?

Mike Camoin:

Boy I was working as a location scout on a Christine <inaudible> film in upstate New York that, you know, the plug was pulled I’m grateful that they told me to get my invoices in and that was used to apply for stimulus funding. The fact that I had a paycheck just prior to it. So I’m grateful for that. I pivoted by, you know, one of my skills is to organize and bring people together what I’ve done through the Northeast filmmakers lab prior to that upstate independence, which was part of up a I F and I could just add that, you know, back in the day there was no film commission in upstate New York. I said it was just Saratoga, but it expanded. We got it to be the, the capital Saratoga film commission. They might have even changed their name again.

Mike Camoin:

And they, what I did was start to reach out to people. Zoom was just coming into my awareness. And by April we had a show called Check the gate. And at the time we were doing, you know, one or two episodes a week and, you know, I found that people were available. So we started to bring guests on you know, from London, the London film festival to entertainment attorneys and actors then I’m blanking on the guy’s name, the African American who was killed in, in Minnesota George, George Floyd mm-hmm <affirmative> that just send a, like a, a Royal message into our entertainment industry. So in June of 2020, you’re starting to see our entire industry pivot around that in the middle of COVID. And you know, so then I was like, let, let me see who else I can reach out to.

Mike Camoin:

And so check the gate, we started to bring on issues of race and topics like that. And it was incredible learning about some of our friends who are actors, producers, musicians, you know, what life was like for them. And so that became, you know, a very good education for all of us and to build upon that. So that was what fueled me, was communicating with other people through this on the set eye job that I held to, you know, make money was realtors were also not able to show inside of properties. So I had a realtor friend said, Hey, can you edit this? We just shot this, you know, handheld. So it was like, I did eight houses of video tours, you know, that was good money. And you know, other shows like that just became incredibly valuable.

Mike Camoin:

And so, you know, we’re not gonna put zoom back into the bottle in any way. I think it’s an incredible opportunity for us to communicate around the world. I mean, I, I remember attending con at four 30 or five in the morning via zoom. It was so much cheaper, but you still got to, you know, network and have individual meetings and just, you know, took advantage of it that way and getting plugged in to our industry. I, I find it fascinating now. You know, festivals, film festivals are still online. Some are now, you know, going back to in person, but people you can meet. That’s exciting. You know, I, I felt like the pandemic broke our industry open. You, you, you know, it was like, wow. I was, you know, everyone was like sharing pictures of, look at who I was on with. <Laugh>, you know, I dunno if you remember that, but it was just like, it’s pretty incredible.

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Yeah. I there’s

Josh Friedman:

Actually things,

Bonnie Williams:

Yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Josh Friedman:

Oh, good. There, there’s a thing that happened with the DGA. So the there’s the east coast assistant directors and there’s the west coast assistant directors. And before the pandemic, we rarely connected or spoke. And once the pandemic started, they did something called the Republic of zoom. And so all of a sudden east coast and west coast, 300 people were on the same call having conversations, sharing information. And as we went back to work, they were also sharing information. Here’s what we’re doing in Georgia. Here’s what we’re doing in California. Here’s what we’re doing in New York. And that had never happened before

Mike Camoin:

Josh. I remember being on a zoom with it might have been a coffee with the production Alliance and they had a guest from Australia on there and they, they were still filming, you know, down there in New Zealand and Australia. And it was like, wow. It was, it was an incredible exchange of information that was, you know, ever evolving and changing. It was, it was quite a period.

Speaker 5:

Hmm.

Bonnie Williams:

It’s crazy to think that was happening two years ago. And I think it was a Friday, the 13th, cuz I think I was supposed to host a spooky St Patrick’s day party, like a second Halloween in March on Friday the 13th. And then it was like, okay, well this’ll blow over. And then it didn’t. But yeah, when you were saying that earlier, I was like, it was Friday the 13th. I remember that. Cause lucky

Josh Friedman:

Day for me, I got off

Bonnie Williams:

<Laugh> yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s a good day for me too. I would love to ask you Josh about, do you have any new or upcoming features or tools that you can share coming up with crew me up? Anything that’s like coming out?

Josh Friedman:

We do have a 2.0 that we are developing. Let’s see, we’ll be launching it mid-May this year and then we’ll be adding features month by month after that. But we’re really what we’ve done is we’ve instituted a social theater. So given more of a community aspect, we’ve offered more ways to connect whether that’s through teams, through groups. And I, I don’t mean like Facebook groups, people just put them up. I mean, these are nonprofit organizations and legitimate businesses that support where it’s diversity support, education, support filmmakers in ways that they haven’t been able to find before. So those are the kinds of things that we’re really working towards with the 2.0, build,

Bonnie Williams:

Love it. 2.0, we love new things. Rolling out. That sounds fun. And probably stressful in a good way. Like that excitement probably with like getting things ready to roll out.

Josh Friedman:

It’s not hard at all. It’s just complicated.

Bonnie Williams:

Love it. I love that. Right. And what do you like most about what you do there?

Josh Friedman:

What did I do at Crume app? Mm-Hmm

Bonnie Williams:

<Affirmative>

Josh Friedman:

That’s that’s a hard question to answer top three. There’s not very top

Bonnie Williams:

Three, <laugh>

Josh Friedman:

It? It’s really simple. I love to serve take it in every way that you possibly can. I love to help people. I love to serve the community. I, I love to take care of this guy. It’s, that’s what I do and why I do it. I wrote the book so that we could educate the community because I wanted to work with people that were better and we provide opportunities. And we’re trying to deal with the problems that everybody’s talking about, whether that is diversity, whether that is learning and figuring out how to take that next step, whether you wanna be a PA or you wanna be a grip, you know, there’s, there’s different paths for each of us to take and I, I love to serve that’s that’s really what I love about this.

Bonnie Williams:

Fantastic. That’s I can beat that answer. That’s wonderful. Awesome. Thank you. Can’t beat that. Love to serve. I love it. Mike, I wanted to go back a little bit ways for a question that I have for you is what’s the number one thing that people should know about film design. And when you say film design, what do you mean by that specifically?

Mike Camoin:

Well

Bonnie Williams:

A two parter.

Mike Camoin:

Well, when you mean by design, do you mean like putting something together production together or

Bonnie Williams:

Film design and what it means to you?

Mike Camoin:

Wow. Load

Josh Friedman:

Question. Sarah is the best one to answer this.

Bonnie Williams:

Okay. Yeah. Well, no worries. What,

Mike Camoin:

So I shoot from the hip Bonnie. I just figure, I like, I find a topic that I like and if it, and if it stays with me, then, then it sticks and then I, I get, I go deeper into it. And you know, from there, I, I try to figure out what the story’s gonna be or what grabs me, what speaks to me. I, you know, I, in my very first documentary it was an Aron woodsman. Who’s also a painter and a craftsman and he said, you know, you gotta make something that speaks to yourself first. If, if, if that, you know, you pass that litmus test, then you know, maybe somebody else would like it too. And of course people loved what he did. You know, it’s just incredible. So, but, you know, make something that speaks to you would be the beginning of you know, my idea of designing something that might actually speak to another audience as well.

Bonnie Williams:

I love that. That’s really cool. See this, I know very, very little about this side of things. So it’s, it’s always interest for me to, to be here and to learn something new as well. Cuz I, you know, I’m either behind the microphone or in front of the camera and that’s, they’re like, okay, you can leave. You know, that’s, that’s kinda everything that I do. I had a when I worked in the costume shop at a theater, she just said, you know, you’re an actor, you’re a prop that eats. It was like, wow, okay, well that’s

Mike Camoin:

<Laugh>

Bonnie Williams:

She said it with love.

Mike Camoin:

Yep.

Bonnie Williams:

But you know, I was like, wow, that’s when you put it that way, you’re not wrong. So a lot of this is, was really cool for me to learn. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. I would love to ask this is normally only one I would save to the end cause I know Sarah’s gonna be here, but what is the most challenging part of your job, Mike? And then I’m gonna ask you Josh, what’s the most challenging part?

Mike Camoin:

I believe that the most challenging part for me is working in isolation you know, working alone and you know, and that’s why I started the network called upstate independence over 25 years ago. It was part of the a I F salon movement. And I started to, we hosted monthly meetings and other people showed up and it kept going for, we handed the reins off. I say, we Tom Mercer. And I co-founded it. But it hit a nerve because a lot of other people were working alone in isolation. And then once a month we would get together and it would be project presentations, pitches, education, and networking. And people kept coming back and they wanted more and the, the network grew. So you know, anywhere you can join in with sort of a, a think tank can help you propel, get you unstuck.

Mike Camoin:

Obviously raising funds is a hard part, but you know, just keeping your passion going is I think even more important. And you know, we, we started the Northeast filmmakers lab, which, you know, Josh Friedman is, is one of our industry advisors on mm-hmm <affirmative>. It’s if I could just brag about this Bonnie, when filmmakers come into the lab, they really know very little about pitching and, and we get, we tell ’em that, Hey right here on zoom, we’ve done three days of zoom and people don’t want it to end. So there’s something that we’re doing right by letting people talk about their project, but also feeding them information about how to present it in a way that makes sense to when they leave the lab, they’re gonna go and pitch it and raise money for and on the, on the final day, day three, we have a pitch contest. And if you measure the arc of what they did on day one in 20 minutes to what they do on the third day, in two minutes, you’re like, why, wow, you got it. So, you know, overcoming that isolation so you can get what you don’t know and then take that in and, and improve what you do can propel you. So if, if folks are listening, you know, they, they wanna apply [email protected] is our website for the Northeast filmmakers lab.

Bonnie Williams:

Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Working in isolation can be fun until it’s not. And I think we got a whole, a whole lot of that. Even, you know, being on zoom can help, but when you’re consist by yourself, I think after a while, especially for very social people I think after a while it can really start to wear on you. Like most of the time I work by myself. And then when somebody says, do you wanna come into the studio? And we’re gonna have a couple people there it’s like, yes, please get me in front of people. Or when somebody said, you know, do you wanna go meet for coffee? Yes, please get me out of here if you know, I don’t wanna be by myself. So yeah, I think that’s great. Thank you. And then Josh and hi, Sarah. Hello. Hi. We were just talking about the the biggest challenge with your job, but I’m gonna get back to you. I’ll I’ll come get you shortly, give you a, give you a minute to get settled and everything. So. Perfect. Awesome. Thanks for having here. Yeah. Thanks for being here. All right, Josh, what’s the most challenging part of what you do and your job,

Josh Friedman:

Which one?

Bonnie Williams:

Most challenging issue. Is there anyone that’s like across the board that is consistent? Not at all in all of them. Oh, the one that causes you the biggest

Josh Friedman:

Headaches we’ve got. I, I don’t get headaches <laugh> I, I, I truly appreciate that. I, I, I don’t look at the world that way. Everything is amazing. It’s a challenge. It’s not a problem. Love it. But like I said, it’s hard. It’s not complicated. You know, the, the biggest is people and process. So the more, you know, the more you get ahead of, and the more you listen and understand the easier this gets through life.

Sarah Cogan:

Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>

Bonnie Williams:

Love that. Well, thank you. That’s gonna put a little pep in my step, the rest of the day, be like this, isn’t a problem. It’s a challenge. I’m just gonna rephrase everything like that. Construction outside my studio. It’s a challenge.

Josh Friedman:

I can’t keep that the last five years.

Sarah Cogan:

<Laugh> yeah, I I’ve that one. I would, we call it an opportunity. It’s not about, you know, this is an opportunity, an opportunity for something

Bonnie Williams:

Love that <laugh> speaking of opportunity. I would love the opportunity for you to introduce yourself. Sarah, talk a little bit about you. See how see we just pivoted with that

Sarah Cogan:

Thank You.

Sarah Cogan:

You. I’m excited to be here and thanks for working the timeline. So I’m a film designer I’ve been working for the past 16 years as a film designer, and I’m taking all that experience and my experience with training as a performer prior to that and a director and turning that into a, a course online about how do you world build for filmmakers film design and what that means. So going through what I call the four layers of storytelling within film from world building to the actual filming process, through to the edit and, and that being film design. And so I teach P filmmaker or is that process so that in a way that is manageable, linear, and also not linear, but has that formula so that people can follow it. Because what I found going out into the world is that filmmakers, aren’t learning about the world building aspect of filmmaking. They’re learning about how do you write script? How do you run the set, but they’re not learning well, what does it look like to talk to designers? So filling in that missing gap from a cognitive science perspective, as well as from an artistic creative perspective.

Bonnie Williams:

Fantastic. That was, that was a lot of cool stuff there. Background performer. I love it. I love it. So would you say that’s the number one thing that people should know about film design? Or would you wanna elaborate on that a little bit?

Sarah Cogan:

I’m gonna go with yes. And the cognitive science behind it. So like the reason I go lean into cognitive science, when I talk about stuff is it doesn’t matter what I feel just art can be subjective. And so it’s really about understanding how things work in terms of storytelling, because you’re gonna have something that you need based on your film script, that’s gonna be different from what, you know the questions you ask on a sci-fi fantasy feature is very different than what you would ask on a horror feature on a on like, or a contemporary film and the needs are different. So if I say a blanket statement that doesn’t serve, so from a cognitive science standpoint, the reason why film design and understanding film design from so I mentioned the four layers of storytelling in film. So the first one is a script.

Sarah Cogan:

That’s your story type, just to give you guys some context, the second layer is your world building, and that’s the physical three dimensional in which your characters live in that and your crew lives in during the filming process, right? So you’re gonna create and build that world for experience genre. And then you’re gonna take from that world and go into the filming process where you’re gonna compress that three dimensional image into, or three dimensional world into a two dimensional image. And that’s our, the, that’s all about revelation of form. So how do we see and experience the body through the camera lens? And then the fourth layer being the assemblage and all about the editing process and how do we create juxtaposition and relationships with our, with the images that we’ve captured. Right? And so film design is literally the entire process from layers, two of world building all the way up through the assemblage.

Sarah Cogan:

And so it’s, you wanna each layer deals with the questions of storytelling, from a different perspective that lean into how you perceive something based on the cognitive science and the way that you feel the world. And each of these elements into what’s called the, like, what is the raw data behind when we watch a story and we listen to a story we are as humans, literally listening for all the little details that could tell us about what’s gonna come next. And so the what in the book, why wired for a story by Lisa Kron, she goes into all a cognitive science behind storytelling, and this is this raw data is our film design. So the way we choose to shoot, to frame a scene versus how we set up the context of two characters. So a great example of this in play is in the film gone girl, the scene where Ben Affleck is giving addressing of reporters about, you know, his missing wife.

Sarah Cogan:

If you wa look at the scene, and if you look at the shot, he’s in a world that’s filled with a lot of yellows and OERs and yellowy Browns, right? And so it’s, and so if you look, her parents are in the same color palette and the O the reporters are in the same color palette, but then he’s standing there in a blue button, down a shirt wearing blue jeans. And so what’s happened. There is, there’s two things at play. And what we’re getting from that visually as an audience is something’s not right. Something doesn’t fit. He doesn’t fit in this world and the tools that are being. And so that’s utilizing the concept of being in the world or being of the world to tell us that moment and that story in that moment. And then and then what’s also being played at on visual level is the use of complimentary colors.

Sarah Cogan:

So he’s in blue, which is on the opposite side of the color wheel from yellow. And what happens optically for us is when we see complimentary colors, they become more intense. And because they’re literally fighting one another for dominance. And so it creates this intention intensity in the that’s quiet, it’s subtle, and it’s there. And so if you look at that scene in that moment, he’s in direct conflict and you can even go even further to go, he’s wearing materials that are smoother and in quality than those around him. Other people have more visual texture and physical texture to their clothing. So then there’s a level of, there’s some sort of feeling of a facade compared to everybody else. And so you really get this sense that something’s not right. And that’s the effect, that’s all in the raw data that film design gives you as filmmakers. Wow. And so I was like, I like, that’s like the whole thing.

Bonnie Williams:

Yeah. Well, that was gonna be one of my other questions was elaborate on film design a bit, but I mean, you brought up Ben Affleck, so I’m happy <laugh> works for me. I was team bat flag all the way. I’m just saying. But that fantastic that’s I was gonna re-watch that at some point now, I think I will with like a whole new view on it. Amazing. Yeah. I would love to ask cuz we were wow. That’s just a lot. That’s great. How did you get started in production? Cause you have this cool like background, you know, multi hyphen it, but how did you get started on this, this crazy world?

Sarah Cogan:

Yeah. Well, I went and saw a play at, I always was a performer kid and then I went at eight and saw a play at Oregon Shakespeare festival in Ashland, Oregon. And I was like, this, this is what I wanna do for the rest of my life. So I was like, I’m gonna go be an actor. That’s what you do, right. This is what I’m. So that’s what you do. So I took, I studied with an LA casting director. I took dance lessons, singing lessons, and I wanted to be like Harrison Ford and do all my own stunts. So I trained horses. I learned how to vault on horses. So it’s like when you stand on their backs part, partially a safety thing. But also I was like, well, one day I might have to do this. So I’m gonna learn how to do this.

Sarah Cogan:

I learned archery, all the things like, like sword fighting, whatever I could learn to be able to do my own studs. And then I lost my voice and I thought now what I had throat surgery and I fell into right after I went to college and my dad goes, well, why don’t I see about the costume designer? Like you always made your own clothes. You always did stuff backstage. I, you do that and see what happens. And I fell in love and I was like, I get to do everything. I can do all the character for breakdown that all the psychology and I, I was like, and I don’t have to worry about what I look like. Yes <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> I did. And so that was the start of it. And then I just doggedly pursued. I went and got my master’s went and moved to New York and did the thing that, and I’ve been thing there and just said yes to everything and just kept asking and cold emailing.

Sarah Cogan:

And when people ask me, how did it get in cold email call, drop a resume off. You just don’t know who’s gonna use Crew Me Up. Like legitimately use Crew Me Up, put yourself anywhere and everywhere that people who are gonna be hiring will be looking and then know your worth to know when you’re being asked to do something, that’s not in line with yourself, your value and as the person. And and when to say yes, because it’s worth maybe getting a little uncomfortable for, to be able to make those connections or do, do whatever it is you get to do.

Bonnie Williams:

No you’re worth that’s. Amen. That’s a, that’s a great, not only is it great professionally, but also great for personally. So I love that. Something I had asked Josh and Mike was how have you pivoted during the pandemic? Like, I know we’re all like sick of talking about the pandemic or the panini or whatever you wanna call it. But how did you, how did you pivot?

Sarah Cogan:

I it’s funny, cuz I would go like, I guess it’s technically a pivot. I just kind of went, man. I’ve been asked to do these courses one, how can I serve my industry was the, that was actually the very first question was how can I serve my industry? I love what we do. And what’s been the hardest thing for me to hear over the course of the pandemic is so many people go, I don’t know why I’m doing this anymore. I don’t wanna do this anymore. This industry is destroying me. This isn’t worth worth it. And I’m like, we need that worth. This is the best career ever. Like I love this. Like I have no desire to, to do anything else ever because this for me is in. So in alignment with everything out I love, I mean, I’m like, you wanna be an accountant, come be a film accountant. You wanna be a lawyer, come be a film lawyer. Like we

Josh Friedman:

Need, I can testify. Sarah loves it so much. She fit me for a costume at 1:00 AM.

Sarah Cogan:

Yep. Yeah, I forgot. It was 1:00 AM. Yeah. I’ll do like, you know, so <affirmative> I think cuz I also like got the Josh is gonna be our person. So here you go. And it’s like, okay, you know, let’s make it work. So I really wanna see that shift of one. You know, people let’s make this, an industry people don’t run from. And so, and some of that is, and some of the, what I’ve seen in this world is that people are feeling undervalued. So one, how do we shift the way we show value? I actually make the point to show that in my trainings. And so during the pandemic it was how do I help people? So they don’t get so burnt out. And that was first. All right, let me teach you about budgeting for your, for hair and makeup and wardrobe for your film.

Sarah Cogan:

So you understand what are the things you actually need. And then it was like, oh, well you know what? People aren’t don’t even know what, how to make a look book right now. They don’t understand the visual aspect behind it. They think it’s all about just so they can get money, but really it’s about how are you connecting with your story? It’s not about, you know, and if you are not connected to your story and your look book, no one’s gonna care anyways. So how do we get you to understand then film the design and world building so that you actually know what you need financially to budget for your film. And then you can start up on your jobs and not be so pressed for time. And I just had a call today. I started my free training on world building film design, and budgeting for your creative vision.

Sarah Cogan:

And in it, one of my previous students came to the free training anyways. And at the end he was like, I have to tell you I’ve been using unreal to do my previs for my sci-fi film. And I didn’t realize how many questions would be asked. And I’ve been going back through your work and the, to, to answer those questions. And now I’m getting what you’re saying and now I’m getting that because I’m answering these questions. Now I’m saving myself a lot of struggle in the end and that’s the whole point. And so my pivot has been to do these courses, but I’ve also been going back and designing as well. So I’m like, but I actually went back design and decided was more important to be focusing on. So I’m taking a pause from the production work to do these courses, to get this word out because the thing I wanna see is that people are thriving in this industry and that’s more important to me than any sort of creative life that I get from designing. You know, that’s the world that I wanna live in. And so I guess that is my pivot. I, I was kinda like, well, I didn’t really pay it, but I guess I did pivot <laugh> so

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Yeah. There’s, there seems to be a theme tonight is, is being of value and providing value. It seems to be kind of the underlying theme of everybody here tonight, which is fantastic. And that, that was something else I was gonna ask you is about your, your current projects that you have going on right now. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so you’re, you’re pivoting towards your courses, which is great. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> cause think about how many people you can help with that all at the same time. Is there anything that’s coming out that you’ve been working on or that you were working on that’s coming out that you can share and talk about? That’s not under, you know, fun contracts.

Sarah Cogan:

Well, my film Tapingo has been really sharing itself in the world. So that’s coming out. That was a film. That was a wild story. I got called on a Thursday. I officially booked the film at 10 o’clock at night, the Thursday of their first week of shooting. I, and they were in Virginia and I’m in, was based in New York. And so I was like, okay, I’ll see you Monday morning for call. And but they’re talking. So that one was fun. Cause I love when I get a new costumes that are part of the joke. And then I just heard that we’re getting close to picture lock on a film I did in Minnesota that hasn’t really been released. So I can’t talk too much, but that one I’m really excited about. Cause it’s a lot of like world building and go rounded in reality. So stay tuned. Yeah. Nice. And then there’s something Josh and I did. That’s also coming out. That’s coming.

Josh Friedman:

It’s going around the world right now.

Sarah Cogan:

So

Bonnie Williams:

What is it?

Sarah Cogan:

I don’t, I don’t, if we can, right Josh? I don’t think

Josh Friedman:

Can, we can cause it’s on the festival circuit just hasn’t been released.

Sarah Cogan:

Oh, they’ve announced it. I didn’t even know it was announced <laugh> so I don’t even

Josh Friedman:

Know they had a premier. Yep.

Sarah Cogan:

Oh they did. Oh wait, no, that one. Are you talking about 18 and a half or are you talking about the other one? 18 and a half is out in the, oh

Josh Friedman:

I, no, I’m not talking about the other one. That one we can’t talk about.

Sarah Cogan:

Yeah. That’s what I was gonna say. There’s one that like basically all my really fun and exciting things. I can’t talk about it. That’s that’s what I was talking about. Josh. The one we can’t talk about. Got welcome. Everybody. Something

Josh Friedman:

I forgot about that.

Sarah Cogan:

<Laugh> I didn’t it’s <laugh> so you’re welcome. <Laugh> so yeah, stay tuned.

Josh Friedman:

We can say it’s it’s new media. It’s gonna be interactive. It is a theater film hybrid. That’s about all we can say about it

Sarah Cogan:

And the costumes. I did the costumes on it and I’m gonna tell you right now incredible they’re I’m like and I did them all in like no of time. So you’re welcome. <Laugh>

Josh Friedman:

So start to finish on that. I got hired 20 days before we moved into the stage. I called Sarah within 24 to 48 hours of being hired and we moved into the stage August 1st. We started shooting five days later and we did an episode a day with one day off and then another episode and then one day off and then another episode and then a weekend and then another episode. And that was a challenge.

Sarah Cogan:

Yeah.

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Well that sounds really cool.

Sarah Cogan:

<Laugh> it’s gonna be cool every yeah, I, I can’t, I don’t wanna say anything else, but it, the costumes are ridiculous. <Laugh> so if you wanna laugh, you’re gonna wanna, you’re definitely wanna check this out cuz there’s some, it’s a comedy and also the clothes are ridiculous and the set’s ridiculous and the concept’s ridiculous.

Bonnie Williams:

I mean, you had me at, at film theater hybrid, I come from a theater background and then you said, do you wanna laugh? Like of course I do. So

Bonnie Williams:

Of course I wanna laugh. So yeah, I’m here for it. And I, I am all too familiar with the NDA life and, and you know, you breathe a word about this and you’re sleeping with the fishes. So yeah, no worries on that, but thank you for sharing everything you could about that. That sounds incredible. We are probably gonna be wrapping fairly soon-ish I don’t wanna leave cuz this is great and I’m learning so much from all of you. So I appreciate that, but I, this is a question I, I like to ask people and I I’m glad I get to ask it tonight. And I wanna ask each of you this and starting with Mike is what’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned over the years throughout your career. If you can, if you can narrow it down to one lesson or if it incorporates a bunch of different things, but some, some words of wisdom for us, for maybe anybody who’s watching right now, who’s in a weird place or, I mean, I think we’re all kind of been a weird place, so no pressure, but Mike, you have to inspire us right now with your, your biggest lesson, no pressure, but I think you can do it.

Bonnie Williams:

<Laugh>

Mike Camoin:

<Laugh> well, I’m gonna borrow from Steven Spielberg who later on said he wished he put more of himself into his early movies. And and so I would say that to anybody that’s listening to trust yourself more because you know, the old saying out there in Hollywood is nobody knows nothing. And I really think that that’s true and, and things come to you because you’re the creator, you’re the SP and so why not trust yourself? Why not be the person who has the next right answer or solution to a problem because it’s gonna come from you. You’re the author and you’re the creator. So trust yourself.

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Okay. I asked and you delivered. I love that. Thank you. That was great. Okay, awesome. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate that

Mike Camoin:

Bonnie, before you go on, can I ask Sarah a question

Bonnie Williams:

Always?

Mike Camoin:

Was the car behind you when you worked on Chi Chitty, bang, bang? Like, did you keep that from <laugh> from the film center? <Laugh> Well, tell us about that car. I mean, I, in the background it’s like stunning.

Sarah Cogan:

It, thank you. So it was a gift. My mom got my dad it’s his rat rod. So it’s completely league at the custom build with parts, from cars, from the thirties and twenties. And and I’m in a moment of spending time with family due to a bunch of stuff. And so I was like, well, where can I work? And I was like, I’m gonna work in the garage. And I was like with this dope car. So it’s named after my mom, Luis love. So yeah,

Mike Camoin:

The story right there.

Sarah Cogan:

Yeah.

Mike Camoin:

You know, I, I just wanna thank you for everything that you said earlier, because when you described film design, what you’re like saying was is that there are no small details mm-hmm <affirmative> in, in film and that’s what brings me back to film every morning. It’s like everything, there’s not, there’s not something that matters more or less like everything matters and it just consumes me and my interest. And, and it’s the reason why I, I just love being involved. So I got that from what you were, what you were sharing about film design. It’s great.

Sarah Cogan:

Thank you. Really appreciate that.

Mike Camoin:

Sure.

Bonnie Williams:

Yeah.

Mike Camoin:

Great job.

Bonnie Williams:

All right, Josh, give us a lesson. What’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned over the years you got there’s. I know you can.

Josh Friedman:

<Laugh>

Bonnie Williams:

Right.

Josh Friedman:

So, so there there’s one that I actually said to my PA today. It’s okay to make mistakes. It’s not okay to make the sames. So that that’s the ad talking. But the thing that I learned personally today, cause that’s just one that I give. The one that I learned personally is I was talking to a teamster and I said, thank you. I smiled. I did all the things. And he goes, oh, you’re a nice one. <Laugh> I thought about it. And when it comes to ad, I’m not nice. Like really? I’m not, I know how to do my job. I push, I do the things. What I am is kind. And that’s what I want everybody else to be like, you don’t have to be nice, but you have to be kind

Sarah Cogan:

Mm-Hmm <affirmative> Mm-hmm <affirmative> wow.

Mike Camoin:

Josh. I was on one of my first PA gigs, a guy who hired me, says somebody who come, if somebody yells at you, you come and talk, tell me, cuz there’s no yelling on this set. And I was scared to death to be, you know, in this new position, this is probably going back like fif 20 years ago. But I always remember that. And yeah, it’s, it’s hard not to yell on set, but you shouldn’t yell on set

Josh Friedman:

And you might never yell on say that’s what walkie talkies are for <laugh>

Mike Camoin:

<Laugh>

Sarah Cogan:

People still yell on walkie talkie. Don’t do it

Mike Camoin:

With, with headphones though. You have to have the headphones. So not everybody else hears.

Sarah Cogan:

Yeah. I love that. Wow.

Bonnie Williams:

Yeah. Okay. Well, no yelling on set. Got that. And nice is different kind is different than nice. That’s that’s a really good point. I, I really like that. All right, Sarah, close us out. It’s the biggest lesson you’ve learned over the years. No pressure. Oh, no

Sarah Cogan:

Pressure. No. Okay. I’m like, let me, like, you know, <laugh>

Sarah Cogan:

Biggest lots that I’ve learned like so many are coming to mind. I mean go back to something I said, and also just on a nice versus kind mm-hmm <affirmative> nice is not saying something, something is wrong because you don’t wanna cause a scene or you don’t you’re you wanna be liked it’s coming from, you know, I mean, I had a boss who was nice, but she wasn’t kind. And so instead of saying something was wrong, she would play the nice card and while I’m being nice and it was like, you’re actually icing me out. That’s not being nice. You’re withholding yourself from me and not telling me that there’s something wrong so that I can grow and learn. And so that’s not nice. Cause if you were truly being nice. You would tell me, I need to learn a lesson and you would teach me that lesson.

Sarah Cogan:

And I think that I am gonna go with that. That’s the biggest lesson. And I think that’s the thing that I wanna see more in the world. You know, it doesn’t mean that I’m gonna tell you something and we’re gonna go and make you wrong about it. It’s that we’re gonna go, Hey, this, I’m seeing this behavior show up and it doesn’t serve you. It doesn’t serve the, the conversation we’re having. And this gets to be an opportunity for you to learn and grow because at the end of the day, being kind means you truly value and respect the people you work with and you wanna see them succeed. And when those around you succeed, you succeed and they lift you up and they, and if you allow them to be a part of your career and a part of your, of your connection, you all get to have your cups filled. And so that’s, I think I wanna go with that.

Bonnie Williams:

Wow. Yeah, that’s great. Okay. Whew. That was good. I love that. It all ties together. It’s fantastic. And, and what you were saying about, you know, you wanna be liked and everything, there’s more people talking about that with people pleasing and all of that. And that can be hard if you grow up that way and suddenly you start to say no, and you have boundaries, but that boundaries out of respect for yourself and that kindness towards yourself and other people, it’s not a means of pushing somebody away it’s to mm-hmm <affirmative> to hold that relationship, whether it’s personal, it’s working, whatever, but it’s out of that respect and kindness for yourself. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and for them too. So I thought that was really interesting to phrase it all that way, but yeah, this was, this was really fun. I, I don’t want it to end.

Bonnie Williams:

I just wanna hang out all night and go get some in and out from down the street, come back and just keep talking. But I wanna thank you all so much for being here. Mike, Josh and Sarah. This was really great. Thank you for teaching me so many things I didn’t know about film and film design, and, and this was really great. So thank you all so much for sharing all of your knowledge in being here with us tonight. And I would also like to thank everybody who’s watching, or who’s watching the replay for tuning in and for being with us on this this Wednesday or whenever it is that you’re watching it. So thank you all so, so much and have a wonderful evening or late afternoon, wherever it is you are right now. <Laugh>

Sarah Cogan:

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

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