Our 13th webcast where we discuss the topic of Editing.

 

 

Panelists:

Sarah Marince
Mauricio Tapia
Kyra Uniejewski
Awni Issa
Aaron Tharp
Andy Matthews

Sarah Marince:

Hello, everyone happy Wednesday. And welcome to crew talk brought to you by shoot stop video. I’m Sarah morons, and I will be your host this evening. And today we are talking about editing. So we have a wonderful panel here to tell you all about it. As always. I have my list of questions with me that I will be asking. But if you have any questions now, or throughout this whole panel, you can drop them in our Q and a box and we will get to those towards the end. And today is a really, really exciting webinar because we are doing a giveaway at the end. So you will want to stick around, cause I’ll give out more details as we go along throughout this. So stick around for the giveaway. And I guess I’ll just kind of dive into it. Cause we have quite a few people here on our panel today. We have five, I believe so. Hello everyone. Thank you for joining us on our panel this evening or this afternoon, depending on where you are. So I’m just gonna dive right in and whoever wants to answer can go ahead and do it. How did you become an editor?

Sarah Marince:
Anyone can take it away.

Aaron Tharp:

I’ll I’ll start, I guess. So I started back in high school and I’m I’m older, so it was like 2003, 2004. And I it’s when I kinda first got introduced to editing in general and the joke back then was, it’s like, Oh, where’s hair and Oh, he’s in the dark room over there. And in the Avi club, you know, that’s, if you need to find him he’s over there, clinking away. So I that’s where I really found my love for it, but I didn’t start doing it professionally until about four or five years ago. When both Andy and I started working for a YouTuber called Scott Wynn and we were doing a lot of his, like his blogs and his videos and a lot of his editing. And then from there, yeah, we’ve just kind of built our own, our own business out of that. So it’s, it’s been great. That’s, it’s a wild ride.

Sarah Marince:
And if you, if it’s your first time answer, you can go ahead and say your name also and where you are.

Aaron Tharp:
Oh, I’m I’m Aaron Tharp.

Sarah Marince:
Anyone else want to dive in on how they became an editor?

Mauricio Tapia:

Well I started like probably over 10 years ago, pretty much. My first attempt to everything was again of high school. I had to do like a short film when I direct shot it on edit. And I remember it was like a very old camera and the first attempt to editing my Supergirl computer, it took me like, I dunno, two weeks, any like two minute video. And then I move into cinematography and then just, you know, life took me back into editing and I’ve been doing this since like, yeah, over 15 years now. And I’m, I think I’m pretty young. So Uh yeah, so I am a lead editor at Adler media. I charge all the editing process workflow and I’m also cinematographer. I do both cinematography.

Sarah Marince:

Cool. Andy, what about you?

Andy Matthews:

Yeah, so I’m actually I went to film school. I was like dead set on being a cinematographer. And I I, after I got out of film school and kind of started working, I remember being on set when they had just been like, I don’t really, really like this that much. And I kind of just like fell into editing. It was, it wasn’t really like something that I consciously chose, but Aaron kinda mentioned, I, I got a job working for a YouTube. He had a few million subscribers and he was doing daily blogs and he I, I had like talked to him and he was like, we’re looking for help. And he was like, can you edit? And I was like, at the time, I was like, yeah, sure. I can edit. And so I went to work for him. And so I was like pumping out blogs like every day. And it kind of, it kind of like forced me to learn how to just take a bunch of footage and make something, you know, tell a story with it. And it was it was kind of through that process that I started to like really see the power of, of editing kind of understanding like you know, that it’s, it’s a way that you can influence the story and you can kind of have like a little more like creative control over things. And I really liked that. And then, you know, from there, it just kind of, one thing led to another and Erin and I Erin moved here to Utah and we started working together and that’s kind of a, a niche that we found. Cause I think there’s a lot of people that don’t like to edit because it’s very tedious and for whatever reason we love it. So it’s worked out really well.

Sarah Marince: Cool. Kyra?

Kyra Uniejewski:

I feel like I’m one of the few that as soon as I knew that you can get a job in the movies, that that was like a possibility that I knew that I wanted to be an editor since middle school, high school. And I went right into college and I remember freshman year and film school, they were like, okay, you need to try some photography and directing and acting. I was like, Nope, not necessary. I’m just going to skip it, go right to editing. And everybody looked at me and was like, you should try. But no, that wasn’t really, I just kind of forced my editing jobs on everybody and all the students and literally anybody that would talk to me, I was like, you need something edited. That was pretty much how I started. You knew what you wanted to do. Very cool.

Sarah Marince:
So how was your first paid editing gig? Was that it had to be pretty cool, right?

Kyra Uniejewski:

It was a, yeah, it was, it was the first page. I did a lot of like, I head to a lot of everybody here and anybody in the industry that a lot of free work to start. If I had plenty of experience messing up beforehand, I, and learning what it really was like to work with a client. So the first page one, it was very cool that I was freaking out. I was anxious. I was, I was, I was a mess. I was an absolute mess, but it was cool. I mean, it was fun. And you know, you’ll learn a lot when you, somebody actually is like of importance and not some you’re not sitting in somebody’s living room or in someone’s face, you know, so cool.

Awni Issa:

I was very fortunate with my first paying gig goes with an advertising agency. And that was very much throwing you in the deep end, like right out of film school, because you’re working with multiple clients, multiple demands, multiple styles. And honestly that was probably some of the greatest education I could ever get as far as like starting off. And that led to a long career there that agency. So I was fortunate enough to where my first job turned out to be a huge part of my my career and working that actually gave me room to grow as far as starting off as an editor with that, I had agency and there were pros and cons to not having any other editor, that agency, as far as one, I had no kind of master to look up to or some sort of, you know, sort of be an apprentice to, but at the same time, there no bar for me to hold up to. And there was a lot of pressure off of my shoulders in that way. And I kind of built that department as far as the video department and that worked up to production manager as far as becoming more of the care, the production side, the saving money, as far as every single time we were renting out to a commercial house. So it was the greatest training ground for me. I thought even more than school.

Mauricio Tapia:

Mine was a little bit odd at the base of the first day was the first case because I got to call for somebody who needed like somebody who replaced somebody else who was taking that gig. And then I said, yeah, sure. What do you, what, what should I have to do? No, you need to bring your computer, edit all this stuff. And simple. You’re just going to be there a couple hours. Like, okay, I show up and then the guy asked me, Hey, do you bring your computer? I didn’t have computer that attack. No. Is that Ooh, for his red flags? Well, the guy Bob he’s computer, a Mike book, third thing aimed super small, never use it before, said anything. FICA finally got seven at that time. And the guy said, okay, this is the footage I need this by tomorrow morning. And the heat was overnight and I didn’t know, nobody told me anything. So I had to work the whole night in a conference room alone. It was me and the security guy outside in this place. And I didn’t know what to do. He said, no scrape, not anything. So it was like, you need to put all these together, blah, blah, blah. So I did what I thought it was. Right. And he came up show up in the morning. I show up the thing and say, okay, well give your information to the guy from your pain, man. Bye. And then like two months later I saw the advertised on TV and he basically used my cut. So he was going to Google this.

Awni Issa:
Great feeling to see your work for the first time on like some sort of national televised thing.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. This was in Chili by the way. Sorry. Yeah. Cause I’m from there. So that was like the place where I was.

Sarah Marince: That’s awesome.

Kyra Uniejewski:

I feel like it’s such a huge thing. I feel like every one of us or any editor has had that one job where you’re like thrown into something overnight by yourself, something super terrifying and you know, nothing. And I feel like it’s, everybody’s like, do I really like this job?

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. It was very, I mean they actually more than one time since not really a good position to be in.

Sarah Marince:
So what is the most complicated part when you have to face the editing process?

Andy Matthews:

I think for me just getting to the point where you have like a good, solid rough gut is pretty challenging. I, we try to, we try to take a rough, like a little bit past a rough, because I feel like it usually like bodes better for the director. If they see the rough cut and they’re not like super depressed by it that usually ends up to being like a better working relationship that you have with the director. So we try to like take it maybe just like a, a step farther than a rough cut, but I think just the process of, you know, going through making, making string outs, watching all the footage and then assembling, it’s like, it’s a really fun challenge, but just getting over that first hurdle of, of the rough cut, I feel like sometimes can be pretty daunting when you’re, when you’re first starting out, especially on something like a feature or something where there’s like a documentary where there’s like a ton of footage that you have to process and go through, especially if you’re doing that, you know, process on your own. You don’t maybe have an assistant editor like that. That can be pretty daunting at times.

Sarah Marince:
Well, what’s the most complicated part when you’re facing the editing process?

Mauricio Tapia:

Oh, I will say get into the head of the director sometimes because you can read the screen, you can have many conversations and sometimes you do basically a lot of stuff or the Cod based on the scrape of your conversations, but then you get the director coming back saying that’s not really what I really think it should be. And then you need to start having more conversation, trying to pull out all that information ideas had and try to put thatinto the editing and tell the story the way he had it, picturing his mind. And also the other thing is complicated is trying to suggest, you know, your approach to the editing too, because sometimes they are like very particular in what they want, but your idea of really using it really will help to the story I’ll do project. And you also need to know when and which moment how mentioned that to tell them, Oh, wait, I think if we take your idea and with this approach probably gonna work better. So I will say that’s also tricky most of the time

Kyra Uniejewski:

To bounce off that I would say that like really close to a research side, but I feel like sometimes it’s you, the footage can only give you so much. And sometimes the director or the client really wants something that unfortunately the actor or for whatever reason, it just wasn’t captured exactly how they envisioned it. So having to give the client what they want in a way that you can provide and also being able to separate what you think looks good, sometimes having to give them the client, what you don’t think. Like, I just feel like it’s a lot of psychological balancing of what’s possible, what you like, what they like, what they want, what they can have. Aaron, where are you going to add something? Oh yeah. So in that same vein, like one of the, one of the inherent challenges is you’re dealing with multiple creatives who all want to be creative.

Aaron Tharp:

You’ve got your director of producers, client, and yourself. And so it’s as the editor, it’s sometimes really difficult to balance that, that the kind of creative energy you have on a project, because it’s your job to make it the best you possibly can as well as deliver what the director wants it to be. And sometimes that means eating a big old slice of humble pie. And just being like, you know, this, even though you feel like as the other, this is the right thing to do, it doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. At least not for what the director wants, what for the client wants the producer wants. Sometimes it’s just, you just have to do what they want you to do while also balancing, like they didn’t just hire you to push buttons on a computer. They hired you for your, your, your instinct, you know, for what you can bring to the project. So finding that balance between the two is crucial to having a smooth process in post.

Awni Issa:

I would say adding to that, it’s the hardest thing is meeting expectations living up to expectations, but also doing away with your first draft with this, which is probably the most passionate put into it. Like that was the narrative. That was the story you chose and letting go of that. Cause it’s it’s you spent so much time with it. That is the hard part that first draft.

Sarah Marince:
So does the editing program really mattered to be a good editor?

Awni Issa:

Not to be a good editor. However, in this day and age to be compatible with clients who might be working off a certain program, it is in your best interests. And I find just my experience in the real world premiere is usually the standard. I mean, a lot of people will go towards average. What’s final cut, which I’m all for. But as far as being compatible with your, with most of the clients that I come across, like usually it’s the standard I’ve been using. Yeah.

Andy Matthews:

I would agree. I think it’s, I think it’s good to be at least four enough on, on most of the major MLS that you can like get by. So that I mean like Erin and I, we both use use premier the most, but I’m avid Uh and I use final cut for, for quite a while and I have a working knowledge of them and I think that’s, I think that’s good, but I think it’s more a question of like, what is the workflow? What are the needs of the project? Where’s the project going after it leaves your hands? Like, is there any specifications that whoever’s doing the finishing on it needs? I really think it’s, it’s kind of like cameras in a way. It’s like, there’s really nice cameras that are meant for certain things. And then there’s just kind of middle of the road cameras that are great for certain things. And it’s kind of just depends on what your project is and, and what the needs are.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. You can cut these days, whatever. And in your phone, I mean, you have really good tools to use edit if you, I will, I will put it particularly if you want to do just a guy like you, you, you shot a short film and you just want to do a cut and tell the story and build it. You can just do that whenever it’s not really important to software that you use or, or we’re doing I will say the most important is like your, the perspective you want to give it to the Cod, the idea is pick the right shots talk to your director or, or whoever you need to talk and put that together. Or if you are directing, you know, have your ideas clear and a lot of experimentation, I will say in whatever software you use. Cause yeah, it’s like you said, it’s like a camera. It was, I mean, you can shut anything in at when it should. The only thing that’s different is the quality that you get at the end, but that’s will come. They probably will come with experience and people see your job. You’re going to start growing and changing and evolving with the software. Probably you’re going to tweak when you better software, depending on what you want to accomplish at the end.

Sarah Marince:
So what’s one piece of advice that you would give to someone who wants to become an editor.

Awni Issa:

I mean, like, even if you have no clients and you just need to build a portfolio I can’t tell you how much work I’ve, I’ve gained just based on my portfolio views. So if you need to go out to the woods and just create a story and it is as if I had to pick a portfolio.

Kyra Uniejewski:

Yeah. I mean, my very first job with PlayStation many years ago, you know, I applied for the job and they said, well, you don’t have any games. Experience was like, hold on. I spent, I took two hours. I downloaded every sort of games, footage from YouTube as I could cut a 32nd spot. And I was like, this is games, footage, here’s an edit. And I’m like, great, you have the job. Like they, it was just anything, you know, anything, like you said, anything you can edit. Sometimes it’s stuff that you might be gross, medical stuff, or like boring stuff. Like just do it and, and learn from it. You’re going to learn anything. I still today, every project I do, I learned something while I edit. There’s a new trick that I figured out that I realized could make things easier to tell the story better. Every single project you work on is going to make you better.

Mauricio Tapia:

I’ll say don’t focus on the bling bling of the editing. Don’t on the effects. Don’t focus on the transition. Don’t focus on that. I really love a really well cut movie without any translation. If you, you place a card in the right spot, you don’t need anything else, anything, all those effects sometimes to hide, you know, when they say with good editors or when they’re not good, you use a lot of transition and effect to try to hide all that. But if you’re you think are really good editor, just go for the straight cut. It’s always the best tool and the most I don’t know. Yes, it’s still too for me, a straight guard and that’s everything in the right place.

Aaron Tharp:

A hundred percent agree. Yeah. I’m a great editor as an invisible editor. You should not even realize they’re doing their job if you can’t even tell. I also think watch as well. I think, I think it’s a combination of consume good editing examples. And cause again, in that same vein of like a good editing is visible. Sometimes it’s hard to know how to be a good editor. And I think at least like for me, what I like to do is find examples of work that really resonates with me, that I really enjoyed the pacing of, I really enjoy the way that the tension is built or that the story is, is laid out. And then even if it’s a matter of just going through a scene of watching it over and over again, you start picking up on these things that were hidden the first time you see them, the fact that like a certain shot conveys a certain idea, or the fact that there isn’t a cut in this moment, conveys a certain emotional, like core to the character. It sounds silly sometimes, but these little things, these, the motivation and how you cut something can truly change the entire feeling of a scene. And that sometimes comes from experimenting as well as just watching and consuming these examples that are said before. It’s cause we have, we have a plethora of content that we all can consume at our fingertips all the time. And there’s no reason why we can’t go out there and find the best examples for what we want to do with it. So yeah,

Andy Matthews:

I think Aaron and I kind of talked about, about this earlier too. And I think a big lesson that I’ve had to learn is that notes aren’t always personal. It’s really hard. Sometimes when you get a list of notes back from a client or a director or producer, whoever to feel like you’re being like personally attacked like that, they’re just, they’re just crapping all over. You’re like hard hours, you know, nights worth of work. And that you have to kind of learn to like separate that, you know, that instinct to just be like, Oh no, what I did is right. And, and, and try to get in the mindset of, you know, how are they looking at this? What is this goes to me? And like, is there any merit to, to what these are notes are saying, even though I might not agree with it, you have to kind of like learn to check your ego a little bit and realize that at the end of the day, it’s the story that that is the most important and whatever needs to be done to that and to, To move that in the right direction is, is all totally like what you have to do even sometimes if you have to grow your team a little bit.

Sarah Marince:

So what are some things to know when editing for a client that you wish you knew when you were starting out?

Kyra Uniejewski:

I know when I first started my first few hired, actual paid gigs, I would, they asked me for a rough cut and they, you know, they would come maybe five hours earlier. You know, if I was on site or they couldn’t the day before and asked to see what I had edited, and sometimes you’re put on the spot to show a cut. That’s not ready. And I feel like that’s something that nobody in school or anybody like really prepared me for. Like, what do you do when you know, you’re in a position where the edit is not ready and something, I guess I learned very quickly is that especially when working for a client, a rough cut to an editor is a very different than a rough cut to a client. So when you give, when you show your client, you know, a rough edit, there should be no mistakes that are editing mistakes. The audio pops the music, this or the black frame. If there’s any of that stuff, that’s that’s way before a rough cut. And that’s something that I didn’t know when I first started, I was like, there’s still a few pieces missing, but I’m going to looking for a shot to put in this music thing. And there’s, you know, I’m still gonna add this. And I had to like have this whole explanation before they even watched it. And that was already a bad loss, like a red flag, which in school, you know, they teach you like, Oh, it’s okay. Like you’re still figuring it out. Like this is your rough cut. When you’re working with a client, a rough cut is not rough. It’s new. It’s still figuring things out, but there should be no mistakes that the client can say as an editor, you messed up. Technically, that’s something I wish I had known much earlier.

Awni Issa:

No, you’re not your self worth. Especially getting into the very big as a freelancer. You kind of just want the job no matter what, and a lot of heat, and a lot of times you might sacrifice what you’re actually worth. Time-Wise rate wise just to be that, you know, just a curse to get that job. So I have a price sheet set, know your worth and know when to settle there. It’s this is not, what’s going to be set in stone, but just know when to get into the car and when not to get into the car. And I wish I would have had that kind of confidence at the beginning.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. I will say confidence really hard to build, because while you are even editing a use, I don’t know, this is something happened to me. It’s like sometimes I have a project pretty much done, and I’m never a hundred percent satisfy. I always need something could be done better, but when you show it, people say, Oh, it’s a great job. Great job, great job. It’s like, okay, are you saying it for real? Or is it’s could you give me some extra feedback? Like maybe will help me to grow and improve? So it’s really sometimes hard to get those comments in order to grow personally in your editing would be the technique, or I dunno, whatever workflow, I don’t know that stuff it’s really complicating. Yeah, but as much as I say, don’t yourself worth, I wish I could say it goes away. You’re always going to question yourself no matter how experienced you get, you always question your own self worth.

Aaron Tharp:

I think one other thing that I wish I had known, and it’s one of those that it’s like, it shouldn’t be so obvious, but until you’re like confronted with it at, at least for me, you don’t really recognize it. And that is clients don’t have the experience you do in the world that you work in. And like, so for example, we all understand the process, right? It’s like building a house. You’re not going to start painting the walls. If the plumbing isn’t done, you know, or you’re not going to start putting the furniture in, if the framing isn’t finished, you know, post-production has a very specific process that, you know, it’s ABC in this order and there’s reasons for it. And I’m sure we all know clients. Don’t always look at it that way. They look at it. I want to be picking out the furniture. I want to be putting it in place, but we’re not there yet. So just understanding to be like, I wish that I had learned from the beginning just to, how to communicate better with, with either clients or producers or whoever that isn’t as familiar with the post production process, even in the industry, I’m surprised sometimes to find out just people who aren’t in that just don’t really understand it. Like maybe I don’t understand some things in production as well as maybe I should. Same thing with posts. They don’t necessarily understand why you needed a certain way or why it needs to be done in a certain way. So having that patience and that ability to educate, I suppose, and like help them through it as well as being able to be flexible with how they need it done is, is pretty key keeping that good working relationship no matter what.

Sarah Marince:

Awesome. So is there some terminology or slang that a client or those in the field have used that wasn’t taught to you in school?

Andy Matthews:

I definitely think there’s definitely, there’s definitely a lot of that. I think I also, I also think you, you kind of have to like learn how to interpret. Like sometimes clients speak and editor speak is, are very different things. And so you kind of have to like, interpret like one that we’ve run into a lot is like microseconds. Like let’s, let’s take a couple of microseconds off that. And it’s like, that’s not a term that we use as editors, but you have to kind of interpret that to me and my friends. And so it’s kind of along with what Aaron was saying is like, you have to learn how to sort of meet them at their like knowledge level and explain things to them in a way that they understand. So it like works both ways, right? It’s like, there’s obviously tons of terms and stuff that I didn’t know I’m coming into post that you just kind of gathered by context, but you also have to learn sometimes how to reverse engineer to explain it To somebody that might not even be familiar with the world of post at all.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. I will say the same thing that Kara was talking before is like in the case of the Ralph got a rough bed is a really good example, a rough and you know, when you’re editing movies is a very simple guide of the story that tells a story, but a rough road for our project for our client is pretty much their whole thing. Pretty much done in my, my experience experience. I mean, and then you have to like deal with that stuff. And also in my case, it’s like when I moved here their whole language is different for the one that I really learned. So I’ve had to relearn a lot of the, the, the language and the terminology using the industry. And I will say I’m still learning also it’s everyday new things. I had comments coming in and also it depends who you’re working with. That person also had their own language and their own way to express their own their ideas. So that’s sometimes really tricky because you thought that you knew what that mean, but this person comes with another meaning for the same thing. And you need to start like kind of translating what they’re trying to tell you. So yeah, it’s, it’s a working focus for me, at least it’s still,

Kyra Uniejewski:

Yeah. There’s definitely been some clients where like, they’ll go in and be like, by the way I call a bumper a bomb. I’m like, okay. You know, like I know some it’s, that’s actually a very recent thing, but like, there are, I feel like in general, like, like, like Marissa was saying, there’s sometimes clients, they have the exact same thing in mind, but they just have their own word for it. And I’ve been lucky where clients will say, we call this something different. I know it’s different. That’s what we call it. So get used to it. Whereas other times they’ll just start talking. What I feel like is some sort of like super, I don’t know, LA or whatever language like are we talking about? But I think the big thing for me was that in school, I went to film school. I know a lot of people didn’t go to film school. And as a little flag of, to anybody who wants to be an editor, it’s not necessary to go to film school, save your money, please save your money. If you can. I wish somebody told me. But in film school, they really teach you how to edit feature, length films, like drama films. Like that’s the main thing you were taught and nobody teaches you, especially, I’m not that old, but like even when I was going to school, like there really wasn’t a YouTube, Facebook, Instagram world out there. So the whole concept of advertising online and the different types of content you need to edit and like the different bumpers and bugs and different things to add on it. And a bug is a little like logo you see in the bottom corner or whatever you’re watching. Usually I think everybody universally calls out a bug. I’m not sure you can correct me if there’s another word for it, but there’s just a lot of stuff where in school, they just didn’t teach you the other realms of editing and different clients in different types of avenues are so much more than watching spotlight or something. You know? So even I love that movie edited movie, But there’s just so much more than that. And that’s something that you feel like it depends when you choose what you want to edit. That’s a whole other world of terminology you’re going to get into.

Sarah Marince:
How do you know what to cut when you’re editing?

Mauricio Tapia:
Really good question. I’ll say, go ahead there.

Aaron Tharp:

I’m sorry. I’ll, I’ll, I’ll be quick. Yeah, it’s, it’s kind of the age old question of like what to cut, what not to cut. Right. And every type of video or every type of project you’re working on always has like different, you know, a different answer to that, but it’s a combination of just like understanding what material you have in a project. So for example, like on a feature like you need to know from beginning to end, what information has been presented. You need to understand where the characters are at. You need to understand where your story and your theme is at, so that as you go through and cut, you need to make sure that you’re not cutting vital arteries to the story that you’re making sure that that is there. Also, you have to be careful of like doing it too much. It’s one of the most challenging things as an editor is it’s like to cut, you know, you got too much, you got too little it’s too long. It’s too short. Getting that pacing right. Is crucial. And I hope this doesn’t sound pretentious, but in many ways it’s like, it’s like a second. It’s like a second sentence. It’s there’s that, that, that internal pacing and that rhythm that you, you just sort of either have, or you learn while editing, but you understand, that’s like, you know, this is too short, this is too long. It’s actually something cool. Andy and I have been able to, what we do is since we both edit, if I like produce or direct something, he edits mine and vice versa so that we’re not too close to a project that we’re constantly being open to maybe edit it, being cut in a way. We didn’t say we didn’t see in our head when we were shooting it or when we were directing it. And so that helps us kind of always keep a fresh mind and we know that that’s not always accessible, but I think being able to look at it, not just the one way that you saw it in your head or your, your instinct was first, but being able to work through it. And then following that internal sort of rhythm that insert that internal sort of yeah. That, that pacing that you can feel in any given project it’s there, you just have to discover it. So,

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. I, I agree with you. A lot of that, I dunno, 7 cents when I call it I call it anything with the gut. But yeah, I would say it’s also, they’ve the project. You can, I don’t know if you are Eddie monad and that is very simple. You have this frame, there’s so many shots done, you know, seven, 10, you put that together and you use to here and there and you’re done, then you have, you know, co-operatives is an interview. You just put it there, follow the script. If there’s a script, if not, you use isn’t the question, you just got it, make it look pretty where he brought Don. But when you’re doing a short or you’re doing a movie, or maybe you are actually doing, you know, an ad, but it has like more, it has to be more in Tanzania regarding feelings, you know, when you’re trying to get into a nonprofit organization and you’re trying to cap people to, you know, donate millions like that stuff. It’s like, okay, I sit down, I read the script. I do. They call it based on the script just to have it laid out and build a story basically. And then as when the gun comes in and say, okay, I need to, okay, this is a moment he’s saying they cut in a cut. And you’re still like, as you said, Aaron, you start feeling it and you start flowing. Th th th th the, the footage that flowing in you and you start flowing flowing with the footage. And then it was like, when you’re driving, there’s like a connection when they call it this, in this case with the editing. And, you know, and you said like, can I have an idea? How are these going? And where is going? I don’t know. That’s when a lot of that happened with me, at least it’s a lot of the feeling, how am I feeling these edits? And when I’m not sure I usually call somebody, I don’t know, at the office, I’d say, can you watch it and tell me what you think. I mean, your idea is this, this is what I’m trying to do. Is are you going, are you feeling it or not? When you get the note, then you change the approach and you go in a different direction and try to tweak here and there also have the music Hill, you know, sound effects the tone of, of what you’re seeing in the screen. Also healthy color, all that of stuff. But yeah, I will say that’s mine. I’ll also say that organization’s a big part for me when I’m, as far as what to know what to cut because to everything that Maurice said, there’s a passion. But if there was that in inherit cut that, you know, should be, but dealing with clients, it may not be what you envision sort of future proof.

Awni Issa:

I always like to say trimming the fat, especially with a lot of my work is like interview work and multicam work. It’s trimming out. The question part is trimming out the urge and the ums when possible to see what complete thoughts are there and logging my timeline as far as markers, so that every single person who’s interviewed every single B roll real, you have, you pretty much have a reel of all the beet potatoes. Cause once you trim the fat on slept, this what you want there that’s usable. And so if it comes that your first assembly, wasn’t what the client wants. At least everything is organized where it has to be as far as the different tapes or what if we switched that to this line? Or what if he switched it out to this a B roll shot, everything is there at your tips to where you can still have that flow, but be organized as far as when those versions three version 17 packets with the client.

Kyra Uniejewski:

I would also add to that is something that I’m not sure if someone told this to me or if I figured it out, but it’s something I’ve been saying to anybody that I train and help like get into editing is that it was every single edit it when possible, which I think is like 95% of the time that whenever possible, every single cut that you make should teach the viewer something new. And I, something that’s hard to, to be able to like, understand what that means, but sometimes if you’re doing an interview and they kind of say the exact same thing, but in a different way, that’s still interesting. But they ultimately did say the same thing or the B roll shot really just teaches the same thing. It’s still the same angle, the same product. It didn’t show a different feature or a different button or a different how big it is or something along those lines, depending on the content. But every, if possible, every single time you edit something, you should teach your viewer something new. If it’s the same thing. Why did you put Y we don’t need it.

Andy Matthews:

I was just gonna say, and I think another thing too, is that I think there’s this kind of pressure as an editor when, when you have a lot of footage that you feel like you have to use all of it and you’re like, Oh, I have to use this shot because you think about just the sweat equity that went into that shot even existing on set. And so you, you feel like you have to like, include everything. And I think it’s really important that you kind of get past that. And, and again you know, like spending said was like, you focus on the edit on what the, the information and the story that needs to be presented is cause it’s really easy to get caught up in that web of like, I have, well, I need to use this shot or they did this really cool, like one or, and I don’t want to like interrupt that. And, and so you have to kind of get over that anxiety of feeling like if not every shots in there that the cinematographer is going to be like knocking on your door, like, Hey, why didn’t you put this with my favorite shot? So it’s just a little thing that you kind of have to mentally move past, for sure.

Kyra Uniejewski:

I’ve had some times where some photographers actually have called me and said like, I really love this shop, but like what I’ll do. And like, depending, like I wouldn’t offer this to all people, like as a disclaimer, like it’s not for everybody, but sometimes I’ll pull what I think are the really nice shots and put like the best takes of them. And I’ll make like a little cinematography reel so that they can have it for, especially now for social, they could use it. It’s not gonna end up in the car. Like here’s a little like 30 seconds. Like nothing actually cut. It’s just the shots that were looked really nice. Here you go. And that way everybody’s happy just in case you feel that guilt.

Mauricio Tapia:

Another thing I would like to mention, I don’t know if this is really connected with the question or not, but I think it’s more to say is as an editor’s, we also have the power to manipulate their footage in so many ways. Not only would that cop, so sometimes, you know, you’re editing and you don’t have that closeup. Well now at 4k, we have the chance to punch into the free day, few judge and get that closeup as those that we can get, or we can flip shots and we can manipulate a lot of in different ways if we decide to get that particular shot that we need, or that particular scene that we need to tell the story. So I think that was worth dementia because some people think it’s just, Oh, you shot it. And you just chop it and add a teacher here and there you tell the story you have done no, sometimes happen like, Oh dude, I didn’t have that sacred angle for these cameras. So I couldn’t get the closeup. Okay. Let’s one chain. Sometime you get blurry, but, and some depends on the project. Some people is producer and director and more technical. They want everything to clear chart, you know, super defined them the screen, but some other doesn’t care about that and they care more about the story. So they don’t care if you punch in on the, if the shot is a little bit softer, because what is more important is to tell the story. And that’s also super important to know and tell everybody who want to be an eight, or you can play with that and you can create even shots from other shots. You can merge two together and do some, it kind of gets into the limit of the VFX. If you want to call him without really using any for people or its official program. In this case, it could be final cut or after premiere, you can immerse do shots and play with them and try to create that a couple of those that you’re missing or add something new.

Kyra Uniejewski:

I was just going to bounce right off of that. Is that I see there’s a question here that kind of like feeds into, into that same, like if there was a shop missing, like what do you do? And like specifically this question is asking, like if somebody was crossing the room and the act, the director didn’t get coverage of the actor walking, and I’ve had a few different instances where, you know, whether it be that and the, you know, you can punch it on a closeup, but you can also use sound effects of Foley, of footsteps, walking on a wooden floor to cover that, you know, you can use audio. I know video editing. You only think about the visual, but audio is 50% of the content you’re watching. And video edited as a video editor. We are still responsible for the audio editing. I feel like that’s something people forget about and that really can make or break your entire video, edit if your audio is crap, like it really can. So really manipulating the audio, the footsteps, if you want it to cross. And that, that shot wasn’t done. Or actually, you know, I’ve had certain scenarios where I was editing something and there was a hum in the background. I’m sure we’ve all had it where there’s either a refrigerator on or something. There was like this awful noise, but it was only captured in some of the footage, but not all of it. So every time you cut to a different character, a different person, you hear this annoying buzz in the background, you take room tone and you put it under. So sometimes you have to take the mistakes that are made and make it part of your edit. So now the entire scene is going to have this buzz and they’re going to like it, cause it’s, that’s it that you can’t take it out or if there’s a Creek and the wood, and like, there’s just really annoying, random noise that keeps happening or airplanes keep flying over like fine, add five more airplanes that weren’t actually there. That way it feels like it was part of the scene and try to enhance it. So it doesn’t feel like a mistake. It was intentional. So audio is something that’s really important that I feel like we forget. And after editing for such a long time, we just know by something that when you’re starting out, like it doesn’t come naturally. I feel like

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. I’m beginning to believe that audio right now. It’s more than 50, to be honest. I mean, in my experience, yeah, you can, you can present a video with a really bad and a good audio on PBL. We’ll say it looks great, but it shouldn’t be a really good video with that Aria audio. I mean, and people, it doesn’t really, I’m going to say, I don’t like it doesn’t really look good. It doesn’t feel good. I don’t know that I saw that also that experiment on YouTube. So somebody was like at a full movie in bad quality in it, and then a good quality. We thought audio and the back belly movie with a good audio that people prefer that. So it was like, it’s telling you something audio. Yeah. Sorry,

Aaron Tharp:

So we actually had an experience with something with this. We were working on a horror movie a couple of years ago and there was a scene where this like sister was attacking her older sister with a knife and, and they, they did all the coverage, but then the older sister pushes her sister back and she crashes into a bathtub. But they didn’t have coverage of the pushback. All they had was like a medium of the sister pushing. And that was it. So we were like, what do we do? There’s no impact. There’s no moment. Like we tried, we tried like doing it with sound. Even there was like a pickup, but it just wasn’t working. And like, what do we do to sell this moment? And we did something that’s kind of a Cardinal sin. We took another take and we reversed it and we’ve we didn’t reverse it. We’ve reversed the footage so that instead of her pushing her forward, it looks like her sister’s pushing her back. And, and I mean, it was just like, what are we, what are we doing? But it, it works. It’s fast enough and it like, you never notice. So I think being able to like, not pre decide something is bad or wrong as an editor, just being willing, being willing to play and experiment with something to eat might even just be terrible. You never know until you try it. And then once you hit it, you know, like, that’s it, that’s the solution. So, so true.

Sarah Marince:

So when you get hired for a project, are there certain things you do in preparation before editing a lot? Who wants to go first?

Andy Matthews:

I think I mean, it’s, this seems pretty obvious, but I think reading the script and it’s something that I, I, I think it’s kind of, it’s kind of hard right. To, to really like sit down and put yourself in that, and that mindset of really like, trying to visualize the cut from from the script. I mean, this, this feature that we’re working on now, it was a really cool experience, like reading this script because there was like certain moments that I had very like specific ideas for in, in the cut. And you know, then when you get the footage, you’re kind of already like primed to dig in and you already sort of have like a, an idea of, of how it should play out. So I think like really digging into the script. And I also think having conversations with with the director and, and getting ideas of like, what movies do they really respond to? Like, what do they consider to be a really well cut film? And just trying to like, get an understanding of the style of the movie and, and what you need to bring to it as an You know, ideally you wouldn’t before cameras roll is, is huge. I worked as a DIT on several of the features that I’ve also edited and that’s been kind of a unique experience too, cause like rolling into the edit. I know what footages there and I’m there on set. And so I can, I can kind of say like, Hey, I noticed like we don’t have the shot and then we could grab a pickup of that, like right now that would be great. So that’s another thing too, is like, if you can get on set, you know, even not like you have to be there every day, but if you can just kind of be there and I’m rubbing shoulders with everybody, I do think that is, is a good thing. Just to give you a little bit of extra, just so you can kind of understand the vibe and the tone of the film.

Kyra Uniejewski:

I’m actually not all the time, but I actually the Cardinal sin or there’s sometimes I make a point not to read the script at all. And I say that because sometimes, unfortunately not all the time, especially if I’m working with a new client where, you know, sometimes you can get a vibe off of them that so unfortunately, regardless of what the dream is, what the script is going to be, they hope the actor is going to portray it in a certain way. And they hope this cinematographer’s going to film it in a certain way. At the end of the day, the footage that they got is what they got. And a lot of the time, what they filmed is not what they wrote and it’s not bad sometimes that’s great. You know, you have all these different creative minds becoming involved now and enhancing and making things feel differently while they’re on set that sometimes when I read the script, I have a certain vibe of what I’m getting into and then I actually get the footage and it’s not at all what I initially expected the script, what I had felt from it to feel. So obviously that’s like awful to say, but sometimes I feel like I can move faster if I don’t have those, those predetermined notions of what I’m getting into. But to feed off of the DIT thing, I didn’t know for a long time what a DIT was when I started out. And I feel like it’s a really important job that I feel like every editor should try to do once or twice. Like you just really have a value of what, how important organizing is. And I feel like you need to work as a DIT the first few times, even if you’re the assistant DIT that’s even better. Like just, I feel like that’s a job that every editor should do. And it wasn’t something I knew about until I did. I did my first few DIT jobs. It’s like, wow, man. Now I’m going to approach my whole editing organization way differently now. So yeah.

Awni Issa:

I would also say just, it should be obvious, but as much as like, it’s not what they said, they’re gonna shoot. And what comes into your computer is not the same. The other side of the coin is sometimes you kind of have amateurs who are, especially in this day and age of film production, everyone is filming on. It’s not necessarily a camera man or woman. So it might sound obvious, but a big thing is just organizing your footage before you start your edit, like set up all the sinks, set up all the, if you have someone who filmed up iPhone for 30 minutes vertically, you know change all the framings, get everything set, the frame size, interpret all your footage to the frame rate, to commit slow motion, get it all out of the way so that when a time it comes time to be creative, you can just be creative and not have to stop at a roadblock and start assembling a new setup or multicam set up, get it all out of the way and then just flow with it.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. And also to mention the preparation besides all where you guys said is I need, in my case, we work in a production company and we received silk project for many editors. Sometimes some frameworks are bigger than others. So you really need to think on workflow wise, how it’s going to be my workflow. A part of that is okay. It seems from the beginning, reading the script, how this story is going to be and all that stuff organization, which this is something that I can hopefully everybody getting to an organization is really important. I think we all have to say it right now, but in my case, it is really, really important because I’m working not only by myself and you work by yourself, you can do whatever you want, your, your program was organized, whatever you want, because you are the only one working with those files. But when you put more people in the plate, everybody needs to speak the same language, not only leader language, but in their organization needs and their probably say their program. So where’s it gonna be their footage? Where’s it going to be their graphics where you’re going to be the music where’s going to be the sound effects. How has that full are going to be? Where is that going to be located in your computer, in the server proxies how we’re going to make the person we’re going to make it big, smaller et cetera. And all that has to be very, very strict trade at the beginning. And as we said is you have to spend that time being more technical at the beginning. You know, more techie, not a lot of people like that, but I learned it hard. You know, I mean a bunch of mistakes until now I’m super focused. Okay. I need to have everything super organized and I’m very sometime I asked a lot of the people who work with that with us. I mean, to please follow that because when we bring it back and then we need to reconnect, or I need to send that to another editor later because we are busy with another project that other editor is having issues. Like I cannot open this. I cannot find this file. This is not in the folder I should supposed to be. So it created a whole little kind of issues that pile on and actually huge snowball that a delayed, the whole project could be a week. It could be two weeks because some of the files are so massive that you need to transcode. If you are working in eight K now or four K and you are working on a laptop, you need to Trask all that. And that take hours and send it footage. Now sending it through internet also that could take days to send it footage to do internet, because not always is possible to send it in a hard drive to FedEx also it’s depending on, on budget and all that stuff. So yeah,

Awni Issa:
I would say that’s the hidden beast is the transfer of files online. Yeah.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. And people also said yes. And then through Dropbox. Yeah. Dropbox. Yeah. Do you have the 500 gigs that you need in to receive that. No? I only want to have one. Well, how are you going to receive it?

Andy Matthews:
Do you have three years?

Aaron Tharp:

Yeah. Yeah. Just can’t stress organization enough. Like it’s, it’s, there is nothing that has made life either more miserable or more blissful than proper or bad organization. And like, especially when you’re like inheriting something from another editor, you know, it can be really difficult to just like, you know, sometimes I don’t know for us, it’s like, usually we just start over. See, it’s usually easier just because we have our system that works for us and we try and make it clear and concise. And even then you can always improve. You know, sometimes he gets stuff from editor that’s better than what you have and it’s nice to be able to go, Oh, I see why they did that. That’s nice. So let’s incorporate that. But taking that time, the boring side of editing to making sure that you’re organized both in your, your assets. Cause sometimes you’re dealing with, I mean, it’s preaching to the choir here, but hundreds, thousands of files, maybe more like both the video and otherwise. And if they’re not properly there, then you’re screwed before you even begin. So organizing from the beginning and while you’re editing and while you’re exporting and while you’re, I mean, this, you can get lost in the weeds so fast. If you don’t have a system that works

Mauricio Tapia:

And backups, we forgot to mention, yeah. If you have a RAID. That’s not a backup. Remember that have to backup in another place. And hopefully even a third place or even a fourth place.

Kyra Uniejewski:

Nothing. If nothing else, I was going to say like, at least duplicate your sequences and copy your sequence somewhere. That’s one thing that I I’m sure, every editor on planet earth has learned more than once that they got notes from something, they did something. And then the client of course was like, you know what? I liked the other way better, but you didn’t duplicate the sequence from before and you have to go by memory or you have to go by your previous edit and actually spend hours of work, recreating it rather than just going back to a different sequence. It’s something, anytime you’ve opened my project file. Not even every time I go to my computer, I duplicate the project file within my finder window. Or if you’re on a PC, I forget what that’s called. I’m sorry. Or, and then when you’re in your editing software, I immediately duplicate and rename my sequence to something that makes sense. Not just like a bunch of scrambled letters, which I know a lot of people did in the very beginning, actually number one, two, three, rough cut. One final kid to like actually define what it is, but that yes, backup. And then copy that project file onto a desktop onto another drive. The media is annoying. That can be re transferred the amount of hours and time you put into your edit. The only place it exists is in that project file duplicated and save it to save your life.

Awni Issa:

No one ever told me, it’s just this obvious. Don’t make your auto save in your project folder, put your auto save to another drive.

Aaron Tharp:

We actually, yeah, and don’t trust technology. We just had like a drive that was a really, really high end drive, expensive drive with a brand new project. I worked on it for eight hours, almost done on the edit, and the drive, just, just brand new drive, just crashed. I lost everything. Thankfully there was a backup, all the footage, but I lost all the work and that was my bad that’s that’s actually one of those things. It’s like, Okay, now we have a new system for making sure that even if this happens again, it’s not going to happen again. So again, you still learn. You can do it for years and still find things. It’s like, you know what? I can do better. So don’t trust technology. It will fail.

Kyra Uniejewski:

Exactly. Well that and make sure that you say you’re save or when you save your project, first off, change your autosave to three hours to every five minutes because you’re from here is set up to go. You can do a lot in five minutes, my friends, you can do a lot and let alone an hour, let alone in an hour or two first off. So change your default settings, go in there and actually go into all those annoying menus and whatever editing software you’re using. And actually look at that stuff. You’ll find a lot of really fun tricks that the software actually wants to help you with. You’re just ignoring first of all. And then yes, just duplicate and save it. And, Oh man, I feel like every one of us has like nightmares, but the amount of times, week just ruined everyone’s life, people around us, our families, like I can’t, you have dinner because I ruined everything hard life lessons.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. Let me give you a tip where our audience is a carbon copy cloner. It’s going to save your life. You can keep your auto save in your, in another drive. You know, the five minutes one, but with this one, you can set it up by automatically to backup everything, your project folder with all the assets, all your footage every hour or whatever time you want. So it’s going to be updating everything and it will never delete the previous one. When he update it, we’ll keep it there until, until the basics to full. It will delete the oldest one. And we’ll add the new one. So you’re always going to have a backup and you can do that with multiple drives. I can sleep well now because of that.

Sarah Marince:

So we do have a question in our audience box. It’s from Doug. Hi, Doug. Glad to have you here. So it’s is one seasoned ad agency producer had a rule for estimating editorial costs for every person in the edit bay, reviewing our rough cut. He added in, he added two hours to the budget. Do you find that agencies and their clients waste a lot of editorial time above the post hours estimated?

Awni Issa:

Right. And my answer to that is yeah, they round up that seems extreme. The example you just gave, but I could say the agencies round up because they’re acting as the middleman. They need to have a surcharge to make their money. So as far as the time, it would take a normal freelancer. And what you’re seeing on the invoice. I don’t want to give myself too much where of the agencies I’ve worked with. But yeah, I would definitely say that they round up.

Mauricio Tapia:

I agree. They usually tend to charge overcharge sometimes. Not because they’re trying to rip anybody off, but it’s because they’re trying to cover their asses and they a in order to make sure that the project is done. And if there’s any issue, there is enough time to fix that issue. And also to be honest, I never had that issue here, but at least in, in my country one time book like a week for a 32nd commercial. So it was, we finished in like four hours. So it was like really ridiculous. But so it was not only here. I think it’s in many places agency through the same also. Yeah.

Awni Issa:

To Mauricio’s point. There is a trade off because in the editing or at least the agency world it was doing yesterday. So you learn how to do fast turnaround times to where, if you’re a freelancer editor, you’re not under the gun, maybe as much. So there is a give and take as far as what they round up and what they have as far as the deadline with their head compared to your, what normal freelancer might have.

Mauricio Tapia:

Yeah. And also that came from the old days when your, you know you’d have the live footage and film, you had to have all that time when Trump fair going very soon and all that stuff go to be a senior tail on, do all the editing and adjustments. So that required a lot of time. So some agency keep their costs up in order to justify as well. Some of this stuff. And on, in other cases, the project is really complex. I need a lot of, you know, VFX and stuff and say fan. And also in project.

Awni Issa:

I was at the last leg of the agency. I was at where they’re using the beta tape system to those stations for commercials. So it was, it wasn’t like an FTP client at that point. It was just transferring over, but yeah, that a lot of time.

Sarah Marince:

So those were all wonderful answers to the questions that I had for you guys. And we’re going to get to a really fun thing that we haven’t done before our giveaway. We’re giving away a $50 BH gift card. I love BH. They have everything. And so how we’re doing this is I’m going to have all of our participants except the panel. Unfortunately, you guys can’t play, but you’re going to in the chat box, put in a number one through 100 and I have a nifty little app here on my phone that I’m going to hit randomize is going to pick a number one through 100 and whoever has that number or closest to it, you win the gift card. So while all of our participants are putting their number in the chat box, I’m going to have every member of our panel. Just go through, say your name and your social kind of like self promotion time. You can say your website where people can find you see your work. So Kyra want to start with you.

Kyra Uniejewski:

Oh, sure. I have a website on kyraboska.myportfolio.com. It’s the Adobe creative suite website builder thing. Just kind of nice. If you don’t know that you can do that. Adobe included In your And I’m on LinkedIn and I’m on a bunch of stuff, but I’m really not hard to find. There’s really very few people named Kyra in this world. Let alone my ridiculous long, last name.

Awni Issa:

Awni Issa you can find me anywhere on social media platforms, my full name first and last name. Also, yeah, it looks like nuclear codes. So I understand if you can’t pronounce it, you can also reach me at playnowproductions.com that is my company and website besides that. Yeah. Follow me on Twitter. Follow me on Instagram. Let’s let’s work together,

Andy Matthews:

Aaron and I are in the process of building our web, our website. We merged our businesses earlier this year. And so now we’re going under the same name, which is Timber Picture Company. So hopefully within the next month, when we’re done with the job that we’re currently working on, we can have time to finish the website, but it’s timberpicture.co. And then my Instagram handle is AC.Matthews. Cool. Okay.

Mauricio Tapia:

My mail is [email protected] You can find or see some of my work at BLAREmedia.net. You can follow me on Instagram as @MauricioTapiaDOP. You can see some of my edits and picture them stuff that I posts over there.

Sarah Marince:
Very cool. And Aaron, I’m guessing you let Andy speak for you and your company?

Aaron Tharp:

It’s @AaronTharpPro. But yeah, we’re, we’re, it’s just mostly, it’s going to be timberpictureco for everything. So to repeat you go on Facebook and Instagram and our website. So it’s exciting, actually, it, it should be a lot of fun. We’re, we’re almost there and it’s been a long time coming, so it’s always, you know, fitting that in to everything else you gotta do in this line of work. Having to promote yourself as always seems to be the hardest part.

Sarah Marince:

That’s great. Okay. So I hope everybody who’s been a participant has submitted their number into the chat box. And I have, like I said, this this I’m gonna put closer. The, so it’s on 93 right now, but I’m going to hit randomize. Oh, Doug. You’re told to pick a number of Douglas still with us before I go for it, three, two, one, Doug, where are ya? Okay. We’re going to go for it. So to show you guys it’s legit 41. So if we have a 41 or closest to it, congrats, I think, and Corbin will be messaging you about your gift card. And I think never, I think it was Michael, but Oh, Denise. See, I, I can’t be in charge of picking the winners, but anyway, congratulations, enjoy your BH gift card. And thank you guys so much for being here on our panel this evening. I learned a lot and I’m sure everybody who is watching it as well. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your evening and as always I’m Sarah Marince, you can find me @ sarahmarince.com or on Instagram at Sarah Morin’s and I’ll see you guys next time. Bye.

 

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